Did the PW kick the bucket?

[Jan Arie]

No EU servers, only an Anatolian server and a few strings on CRP.

RIP PW? 

 

[TommyBristol]

No EU servers, only an Anatolian server and a few strings on CRP.

RIP PW? 

There was a recent change to server monetization rules, as you can see in the general discussion section in a pinned thread. This has hit PW server script sellers pretty hard, as in one of the posts, a Taleworlds admin (Duh) has said that selling scripts for PW is now illegal, and the OP by Callum says that server donation rewards such as ingame armor and money are also illegal. It seems that hosters are ending services to many servers due to these rule changes. I personally am welcoming of this change, as it will make the community more enjoyable for the average joe, and will remove paywalls that limit what a player can do. It will also remove capitalism from the server owning scene, so servers will now be based only on having fun, and not on making a profit since you can't sell ingame benefits anymore. On some servers, for instance, you used to be able to pay money to get access to OP gear like plate armor, and there even was one server which only gave horses to players who payed upwards of 30 euros, which was the only RP server for a long time.

I personally feel that it is time for script sellers to come forwards, and release their sources for free. There are people arguing against doing this, saying that free scripts will encourage scammers to pick them up, and sell them for profit. They also argue that these new monetization changes will only encourage people to buy scripts under the table, and will help less trustable people to gain more business. I say, however, that if there are free scripts (WITH SOURCES) available, script scamming and the selling of someone else's scripts illegally will end. If there is something that is free, why would you buy it from someone else who is possibly shady? Its a pretty obvious solution to some serious problems that have been occurring in this community over the past few years. Sadly, this is up to the script owners to decide what to do, not me. If they wish, they can still keep their sources private and not sold, and only give them to select people. Or, they could only give them as free packages that come along side server hosting. In my opinion, this would make scammers appear MORE not less. It would also cause the community to shrink even more in the future, as the only server owners will be the ones who are friends with the script sellers.

This post has a lot of incorrect facts in.


Firstly, the new policies do not affect people selling scripts. It only affect server hosts selling scripts as part of their package, however, private commissions for the creation of scripts are ok currently.

Edith: Sales of services unrelated to server hosting / owning will be discussed at a later point. (I.e. commission a script/model/etc.) This is specifically about server hosting/owning.

Secondly, it is to my understanding that none of these policies have any legal bearing. If you do not comply the worse they can do is blacklist your server meaning that players cannot connect through the server list. Though I am not a lawyer, so I'm not 100% sure of this.


The next part of your post I find rather insane. One minute you're talking about parts of the PW (and parts of the wider M&B) community being hit hard and then you're saying you like the policy. I am rather confused why you want to seem to want to kill an area of the M&B community that is still pulling hundreds of players on regularly.


Also, I think you're rather deluded that you think this policy will make servers more enjoyable. Phoenix, the largest PW community around currently, spends ~70 euros a month on buying the best server hardware that appropriate to hosting several servers and services. Being forced to removal our donation incentives, which had very little advantageous benefits, means that we will have to rely on people's good will to cover our costs, that has so far proven rather difficult. I see the most likely outcome of this is that servers have to downgrade their hardware to make the server viable, resulting in a laggier experience for the "average joe". Nice    *extreme sarcasm*.


I'd also like to address the point you made about profit. I know that there are a lot of servers that this does not apply to, but to my knowledge the current PW servers around do not get any profit. Phoenix struggles to cover it's own cost and any "profit" is kept in a publicly visible Paypal account and used to pay for future months. CRP also spends a lot on getting good scripts, and is currently in the process of getting their scripts improved ready for PK. I doubt Kingsman makes any profit in the long run.


There's not much to address in your next paragraph as like I said, selling commissioned scripts doesn't go against the policy currently. But, I do think that you also under estimate the work that scripters put in to scripts. A lot of time goes into writing a good set of scripts and maintaining them. There are free OSP options out there, but they often lack because there is less incentive for people to put much work into them. I think that having an incentive for things will only push scripts and server owners to produce the best "products" and "services" for all to use, which is obviously a good thing.

 

[Jesse | Oasis-Hosting.net]

There's not much to address in your next paragraph as like I said, selling commissioned scripts doesn't go against the policy currently. But, I do think that you also under estimate the work that scripters put in to scripts. A lot of time goes into writing a good set of scripts and maintaining them. There are free OSP options out there, but they often lack because there is less incentive for people to put much work into them. I think that having an incentive for things will only push scripts and server owners to produce the best "products" and "services" for all to use, which is obviously a good thing.

He out of all people should know. He calls himself "RamarauntTheCodingNinja".

 

[Duh]

I personally feel that it is time for script sellers to come forwards, and release their sources for free.

In my opinion it is counter-productive to the open source project to tell other modders what to do with their sources. Especially if done in a passive-aggressive way ("you can't make money with this anyways", "this is the right thing to do", "i would do it, they won't"). The best thing you can do for the community is to make open source assets yourself. Don't focus on others. And if you do want to ask someone for his source. Be respectful. Be kind. Be positive. Don't make assumptions or accusations. Don't take the moral high ground. Closed source is absolutely fine. This community welcomes all.

 

[Jesse | Oasis-Hosting.net]

I personally feel that it is time for script sellers to come forwards, and release their sources for free.

In my opinion it is counter-productive to the open source project to tell other modders what to do with their sources. Especially if done in a passive-aggressive way ("you can't make money with this anyways", "this is the right thing to do", "i would do it, they won't"). The best thing you can do for the community is to make open source assets yourself. Don't focus on others. And if you do want to ask someone for his source. Be respectful. Be kind. Be positive. Don't make assumptions or accusations. Don't take the moral high ground. Closed source is absolutely fine. This community welcomes all.

I completely agree.

This is how a free market system works. The producers of a good set the price. If you don't like it, start producing it yourself.

 

[Easter Cow]

I personally feel that it is time for script sellers to come forwards, and release their sources for free.

In my opinion it is counter-productive to the open source project to tell other modders what to do with their sources. Especially if done in a passive-aggressive way ("you can't make money with this anyways", "this is the right thing to do", "i would do it, they won't"). The best thing you can do for the community is to make open source assets yourself. Don't focus on others. And if you do want to ask someone for his source. Be respectful. Be kind. Be positive. Don't make assumptions or accusations. Don't take the moral high ground. Closed source is absolutely fine. This community welcomes all.

I completely agree.

This is how a free market system works. The producers of a good set the price. If you don't like it, start producing it yourself.

Yay Capitalism!!!!!!

 

[TommyBristol]

I personally feel that it is time for script sellers to come forwards, and release their sources for free.

In my opinion it is counter-productive to the open source project to tell other modders what to do with their sources. Especially if done in a passive-aggressive way ("you can't make money with this anyways", "this is the right thing to do", "i would do it, they won't"). The best thing you can do for the community is to make open source assets yourself. Don't focus on others. And if you do want to ask someone for his source. Be respectful. Be kind. Be positive. Don't make assumptions or accusations. Don't take the moral high ground. Closed source is absolutely fine. This community welcomes all.

I completely agree.

This is how a free market system works. The producers of a good set the price. If you don't like it, start producing it yourself.

Yay Capitalism!!!!!!

AKA Connerpitalism 

 

[DanyEle]

I personally feel that it is time for script sellers to come forwards, and release their sources for free.

In my opinion it is counter-productive to the open source project to tell other modders what to do with their sources. Especially if done in a passive-aggressive way ("you can't make money with this anyways", "this is the right thing to do", "i would do it, they won't"). The best thing you can do for the community is to make open source assets yourself. Don't focus on others. And if you do want to ask someone for his source. Be respectful. Be kind. Be positive. Don't make assumptions or accusations. Don't take the moral high ground. Closed source is absolutely fine. This community welcomes all.

100% agreed. That's exactly the opposite of what Ramaraunt has been doing in his last posts.

 

[Jesse | Oasis-Hosting.net]

I personally feel that it is time for script sellers to come forwards, and release their sources for free.

In my opinion it is counter-productive to the open source project to tell other modders what to do with their sources. Especially if done in a passive-aggressive way ("you can't make money with this anyways", "this is the right thing to do", "i would do it, they won't"). The best thing you can do for the community is to make open source assets yourself. Don't focus on others. And if you do want to ask someone for his source. Be respectful. Be kind. Be positive. Don't make assumptions or accusations. Don't take the moral high ground. Closed source is absolutely fine. This community welcomes all.

I completely agree.

This is how a free market system works. The producers of a good set the price. If you don't like it, start producing it yourself.

Yay Capitalism!!!!!!

AKA Connerpitalism 

kek

 

[Easter Cow]

I personally feel that it is time for script sellers to come forwards, and release their sources for free.

In my opinion it is counter-productive to the open source project to tell other modders what to do with their sources. Especially if done in a passive-aggressive way ("you can't make money with this anyways", "this is the right thing to do", "i would do it, they won't"). The best thing you can do for the community is to make open source assets yourself. Don't focus on others. And if you do want to ask someone for his source. Be respectful. Be kind. Be positive. Don't make assumptions or accusations. Don't take the moral high ground. Closed source is absolutely fine. This community welcomes all.

I completely agree.

This is how a free market system works. The producers of a good set the price. If you don't like it, start producing it yourself.

Yay Capitalism!!!!!!

AKA Connerpitalism 

kek

Lmao

 

[Jan Arie]

Okay, so, long story short.
RIP PW? 
Or will servers come back eventually, after all this scipt mess has passed by?

 

[TommyBristol]

Okay, so, long story short.
RIP PW? 
Or will servers come back eventually, after all this scipt mess has passed by?

Errrmmmm... there are popular PW server out there. EU_Phoenix, for example, fill the server on a regular basis and there any many others than can be listed.

 

[Alverrt]

PW will die PK will born

 

[Knüppel]

It's these very scripts that killed PW in 2014, ironically.
With banking, money and item saving and all that **** there's absolutely no point playing this mod anymore, as it was designed to simulate a dynamic ingame economy.

It's a common misunderstanding that player convenience leads to a more enjoyable gaming experience.
Persistent World servers lived of the economic dynamics mentioned already.
Back in 2012, when 200 player servers were full daily, the mod design and the demand for weapons gave every peasant a purpose, as long as he grasped to deliver goods and hit trees instead of people with his hatchet.

Banking and item saving scripts completely removed this purpose (The reaction to "fix" this from the scripters side was to suggest to simply provide more stock weaponry for players to access with their bank money, usually, on the open servers, or implement ridiculous application systems for equipment, no matter if you had to donate or not.
Reminder for the older ones here, even on Swadian RP it was possible to work as independent peasant for your money and buy some own weapon rather than to have to lick anyone's ass).

This does no only affect the lower scale of the food chain, of course.

If we switch point of view from the random Joe Peasant to a faction leader, we face the same motivation and purpose issues (I did in 2013 at least).
There's simply no point anymore in actively maintaining a faction ingame for a number of reasons:

-The first issue is item saving. In the original PW design, people, regardless of their time spent on a server, or the mod in general, spawned with rusty gear, and after server resets as peasants. This allowed to plan warfare ingame, by raising a well equipped army and attack the enemy while they were weaker in numbers and gear (Let's stick to generic tactical thoughts here, even if "Okay, twelve levies fake a front assault while Cavetroll enters their castle and kills them all from the back" did happen too

Now with item saving, and in the later script versions I played until 2014 even people spawning in the same location they logged out at, warfare in PW shifted from ingame faction management to having a steam group to alert everyone to come online to defend the castle in war/come online help with the attack on the enemy.
Not pointing fingers at anyone, I had a ****load of people on steam too. But compared to simply playing the game, this was far less enjoyable.
Other related sidenote, all kind of dumb stuff the original mod did not face came along with this scripts- "combatlogging", to name a prime example, as well as "tactics" like having a guy log out in every castle on the map so you can have them log in to open when you assault.

With no actual need for a working ingame economy anymore (since people relied on stacked funds and pre-stocked or script-safed equipment mostly), the Lord as much as anyone working in the economic chain was stripped of their actual purpose.
Paying people became mostly obsolete as they typically won and lost five or more sets of armour a day anyway, and thus did not bother anymore (you could just go loot one back if you lost it after all).
Leadership just as much basically got replaced by telling people to come online, as it's war.

With no need for the lord and faction to uphold economy to equip their soldiers, these very soldiers lack purpose too- leading to unmotivated constant warfare or, eventually, soldiers just logging on when told to for battles.
Needless to point out that this behaviour can kill activity on any server and is not only related to PW.

Same as singleplayer, economy was the driving factor of the original PW mod. A raid on the enemy's mines or castle could set them back by hours, ensuring in return your lands would be spared by worse threats than looters for a little while if you hit their weapon production chain, or allowed a sieging army to actually starve the defenders out as they spawned with 25% HP unless fed with food.

I could go on endlessly about what banking and item saving all ruined on opportunities we had ingame but that's already plenty.
It's this design that formed the background for the wonderful rp sceneries we had years ago, and the scripts implemented under the disguise of making pw a "roleplay game" (or, sold to server hosts after making communities lobby for them) ruined that.

 

[Jesse | Oasis-Hosting.net]

It's these very scripts that killed PW in 2014, ironically.
With banking, money and item saving and all that **** there's absolutely no point playing this mod anymore, as it was designed to simulate a dynamic ingame economy.

It's a common misunderstanding that player convenience leads to a more enjoyable gaming experience.
Persistent World servers lived of the economic dynamics mentioned already.
Back in 2012, when 200 player servers were full daily, the mod design and the demand for weapons gave every peasant a purpose, as long as he grasped to deliver goods and hit trees instead of people with his hatchet.

Banking and item saving scripts completely removed this purpose (The reaction to "fix" this from the scripters side was to suggest to simply provide more stock weaponry for players to access with their bank money, usually, on the open servers, or implement ridiculous application systems for equipment, no matter if you had to donate or not.
Reminder for the older ones here, even on Swadian RP it was possible to work as independent peasant for your money and buy some own weapon rather than to have to lick anyone's ass).

This does no only affect the lower scale of the food chain, of course.

If we switch point of view from the random Joe Peasant to a faction leader, we face the same motivation and purpose issues (I did in 2013 at least).
There's simply no point anymore in actively maintaining a faction ingame for a number of reasons:

-The first issue is item saving. In the original PW design, people, regardless of their time spent on a server, or the mod in general, spawned with rusty gear, and after server resets as peasants. This allowed to plan warfare ingame, by raising a well equipped army and attack the enemy while they were weaker in numbers and gear (Let's stick to generic tactical thoughts here, even if "Okay, twelve levies fake a front assault while Cavetroll enters their castle and kills them all from the back" did happen too

Now with item saving, and in the later script versions I played until 2014 even people spawning in the same location they logged out at, warfare in PW shifted from ingame faction management to having a steam group to alert everyone to come online to defend the castle in war/come online help with the attack on the enemy.
Not pointing fingers at anyone, I had a ****load of people on steam too. But compared to simply playing the game, this was far less enjoyable.
Other related sidenote, all kind of dumb stuff the original mod did not face came along with this scripts- "combatlogging", to name a prime example, as well as "tactics" like having a guy log out in every castle on the map so you can have them log in to open when you assault.

With no actual need for a working ingame economy anymore (since people relied on stacked funds and pre-stocked or script-safed equipment mostly), the Lord as much as anyone working in the economic chain was stripped of their actual purpose.
Paying people became mostly obsolete as they typically won and lost five or more sets of armour a day anyway, and thus did not bother anymore (you could just go loot one back if you lost it after all).
Leadership just as much basically got replaced by telling people to come online, as it's war.

With no need for the lord and faction to uphold economy to equip their soldiers, these very soldiers lack purpose too- leading to unmotivated constant warfare or, eventually, soldiers just logging on when told to for battles.
Needless to point out that this behaviour can kill activity on any server and is not only related to PW.

Same as singleplayer, economy was the driving factor of the original PW mod. A raid on the enemy's mines or castle could set them back by hours, ensuring in return your lands would be spared by worse threats than looters for a little while if you hit their weapon production chain, or allowed a sieging army to actually starve the defenders out as they spawned with 25% HP unless fed with food.

I could go on endlessly about what banking and item saving all ruined on opportunities we had ingame but that's already plenty.
It's this design that formed the background for the wonderful rp sceneries we had years ago, and the scripts implemented under the disguise of making pw a "roleplay game" (or, sold to server hosts after making communities lobby for them) ruined that.

That's just full of ****. PW had 200 players on regularly all throughout 2014, 2015 and 2016.

 

[Dejan]

It's these very scripts that killed PW in 2014, ironically.
With banking, money and item saving and all that **** there's absolutely no point playing this mod anymore, as it was designed to simulate a dynamic ingame economy.

It's a common misunderstanding that player convenience leads to a more enjoyable gaming experience.
Persistent World servers lived of the economic dynamics mentioned already.
Back in 2012, when 200 player servers were full daily, the mod design and the demand for weapons gave every peasant a purpose, as long as he grasped to deliver goods and hit trees instead of people with his hatchet.

Banking and item saving scripts completely removed this purpose (The reaction to "fix" this from the scripters side was to suggest to simply provide more stock weaponry for players to access with their bank money, usually, on the open servers, or implement ridiculous application systems for equipment, no matter if you had to donate or not.
Reminder for the older ones here, even on Swadian RP it was possible to work as independent peasant for your money and buy some own weapon rather than to have to lick anyone's ass).

This does no only affect the lower scale of the food chain, of course.

If we switch point of view from the random Joe Peasant to a faction leader, we face the same motivation and purpose issues (I did in 2013 at least).
There's simply no point anymore in actively maintaining a faction ingame for a number of reasons:

-The first issue is item saving. In the original PW design, people, regardless of their time spent on a server, or the mod in general, spawned with rusty gear, and after server resets as peasants. This allowed to plan warfare ingame, by raising a well equipped army and attack the enemy while they were weaker in numbers and gear (Let's stick to generic tactical thoughts here, even if "Okay, twelve levies fake a front assault while Cavetroll enters their castle and kills them all from the back" did happen too

Now with item saving, and in the later script versions I played until 2014 even people spawning in the same location they logged out at, warfare in PW shifted from ingame faction management to having a steam group to alert everyone to come online to defend the castle in war/come online help with the attack on the enemy.
Not pointing fingers at anyone, I had a ****load of people on steam too. But compared to simply playing the game, this was far less enjoyable.
Other related sidenote, all kind of dumb stuff the original mod did not face came along with this scripts- "combatlogging", to name a prime example, as well as "tactics" like having a guy log out in every castle on the map so you can have them log in to open when you assault.

With no actual need for a working ingame economy anymore (since people relied on stacked funds and pre-stocked or script-safed equipment mostly), the Lord as much as anyone working in the economic chain was stripped of their actual purpose.
Paying people became mostly obsolete as they typically won and lost five or more sets of armour a day anyway, and thus did not bother anymore (you could just go loot one back if you lost it after all).
Leadership just as much basically got replaced by telling people to come online, as it's war.

With no need for the lord and faction to uphold economy to equip their soldiers, these very soldiers lack purpose too- leading to unmotivated constant warfare or, eventually, soldiers just logging on when told to for battles.
Needless to point out that this behaviour can kill activity on any server and is not only related to PW.

Same as singleplayer, economy was the driving factor of the original PW mod. A raid on the enemy's mines or castle could set them back by hours, ensuring in return your lands would be spared by worse threats than looters for a little while if you hit their weapon production chain, or allowed a sieging army to actually starve the defenders out as they spawned with 25% HP unless fed with food.

I could go on endlessly about what banking and item saving all ruined on opportunities we had ingame but that's already plenty.
It's this design that formed the background for the wonderful rp sceneries we had years ago, and the scripts implemented under the disguise of making pw a "roleplay game" (or, sold to server hosts after making communities lobby for them) ruined that.

That's just full of ****. PW had 200 players on regularly all throughout 2014, 2015 and 2016.

And 2017 and 2018

 

[Jesse | Oasis-Hosting.net]

It's these very scripts that killed PW in 2014, ironically.
With banking, money and item saving and all that **** there's absolutely no point playing this mod anymore, as it was designed to simulate a dynamic ingame economy.

It's a common misunderstanding that player convenience leads to a more enjoyable gaming experience.
Persistent World servers lived of the economic dynamics mentioned already.
Back in 2012, when 200 player servers were full daily, the mod design and the demand for weapons gave every peasant a purpose, as long as he grasped to deliver goods and hit trees instead of people with his hatchet.

Banking and item saving scripts completely removed this purpose (The reaction to "fix" this from the scripters side was to suggest to simply provide more stock weaponry for players to access with their bank money, usually, on the open servers, or implement ridiculous application systems for equipment, no matter if you had to donate or not.
Reminder for the older ones here, even on Swadian RP it was possible to work as independent peasant for your money and buy some own weapon rather than to have to lick anyone's ass).

This does no only affect the lower scale of the food chain, of course.

If we switch point of view from the random Joe Peasant to a faction leader, we face the same motivation and purpose issues (I did in 2013 at least).
There's simply no point anymore in actively maintaining a faction ingame for a number of reasons:

-The first issue is item saving. In the original PW design, people, regardless of their time spent on a server, or the mod in general, spawned with rusty gear, and after server resets as peasants. This allowed to plan warfare ingame, by raising a well equipped army and attack the enemy while they were weaker in numbers and gear (Let's stick to generic tactical thoughts here, even if "Okay, twelve levies fake a front assault while Cavetroll enters their castle and kills them all from the back" did happen too

Now with item saving, and in the later script versions I played until 2014 even people spawning in the same location they logged out at, warfare in PW shifted from ingame faction management to having a steam group to alert everyone to come online to defend the castle in war/come online help with the attack on the enemy.
Not pointing fingers at anyone, I had a ****load of people on steam too. But compared to simply playing the game, this was far less enjoyable.
Other related sidenote, all kind of dumb stuff the original mod did not face came along with this scripts- "combatlogging", to name a prime example, as well as "tactics" like having a guy log out in every castle on the map so you can have them log in to open when you assault.

With no actual need for a working ingame economy anymore (since people relied on stacked funds and pre-stocked or script-safed equipment mostly), the Lord as much as anyone working in the economic chain was stripped of their actual purpose.
Paying people became mostly obsolete as they typically won and lost five or more sets of armour a day anyway, and thus did not bother anymore (you could just go loot one back if you lost it after all).
Leadership just as much basically got replaced by telling people to come online, as it's war.

With no need for the lord and faction to uphold economy to equip their soldiers, these very soldiers lack purpose too- leading to unmotivated constant warfare or, eventually, soldiers just logging on when told to for battles.
Needless to point out that this behaviour can kill activity on any server and is not only related to PW.

Same as singleplayer, economy was the driving factor of the original PW mod. A raid on the enemy's mines or castle could set them back by hours, ensuring in return your lands would be spared by worse threats than looters for a little while if you hit their weapon production chain, or allowed a sieging army to actually starve the defenders out as they spawned with 25% HP unless fed with food.

I could go on endlessly about what banking and item saving all ruined on opportunities we had ingame but that's already plenty.
It's this design that formed the background for the wonderful rp sceneries we had years ago, and the scripts implemented under the disguise of making pw a "roleplay game" (or, sold to server hosts after making communities lobby for them) ruined that.

That's just full of ****. PW had 200 players on regularly all throughout 2014, 2015 and 2016.

And 2017 and 2018

I stopped watching the developments in PW from around the start of 2017. Glad to know it's doing so well.

 

[Merlinus]

I'm pretty sure what Kuppel is referring to is the death of the old ways. It is true, things are not like they used to be. Things change over time. There are many older players who don't like the way things have changed.

 

[Knüppel]

Correct. And just because I was being accused of posting things full of bull**** I took my freedom to occasionaly check prime time player counts the past two weeks.
Point proven, nowhere near full servers.

long story short, the original pw appealed to random players (like me) by allowing them to participate in the environment on any level they wanted, from peasant to Lord - even if the later career naturally in many cases was short-lived.

With the current design- and that didn't come with Kingdoms- there's no point in bothering with faction management- or roleplay as for that part- simply because the faction-building stage was removed and safed items allow anyone at anytime to wage war without much preparation ingame.

The result can be seen on the servers, either chaos or clan warfare dominating, and the playercounts accordingly low.

 

[ZeNinja]

pw is ****ing dead. it died off ages with all its constant political cuck mongering ****.