Devs and "Community" Employees Are Averaging Less than 1 Post Per Day - Where Is The Engagement?

[NPC99]

I think Bannelord really needed another 6-12 months to work out all the issues

Difficult to estimate. Just from the bug reports on these forums there have been a lot of issues, which must have overloaded the resources of a developer of TW’s size. Clearly, resolving single player bugs has received TW’s primary focus. That workload must limit any scope to add new features or improve anything that’s functioning.

unnecessarily apologetic on behalf of TW, as if TW can be held responsible only according to TW standards.

My focus is generally on how we move on from here rather than we shouldn’t have ended up here in the first place.

Also he is wrong about project management - good PM and work on schedule will bring a better product faster,

Probably, but who’s got a time machine to reset TW’s corporate culture 12 years ago? Would Armagan have reinvested his profits in Bannerlord, if a Project Manager had given him a clear glimpse of the future? Who knows.

 

[FireBlazinCandy]

Probably, but who’s got a time machine to reset TW’s corporate culture 12 years ago? Would Armagan have reinvested his profits in Bannerlord, if a Project Manager had given him a clear glimpse of the future? Who knows.

You don't need a time machine to know a project manager or project management is needed for a project .

PMs don't predict the future, their job is to plan and excecute.

Blindly defending this company with nonsense like that isn't a good look for you or for TW .

 

[monoolho]

I paid for a product. I want to know roughly when I get the finished product.

It's really not that difficult to wrap your head around.

I hate to keep upping this thread, but by the gods, know what you buy. I am no amerkanski liberal free-marketeer from the land of hedge-fund=success, but you do need to know what you are buying. You have some personal responsibility.
Bannerlord is not a tetrapak carton of milk, with expiration date, a nice table of contents and clear-cut "cut here" marker. It's a game. Not just a game, but rather a medieval sandbox with tons of complex and interacting automated systems, including genetic 'pool' and royal succession (to a degree). Not to mention it is a software, which must be constantly updated and fixed, it is a game, and as you should know, despite agreeing to or not, games are art. And art can take decades to be "finished", and even so, they rarely are.

Yes, a realistic painting can be done in a matter of weeks, maybe months using traditional oil-paint. But a realistic painting is nothing but a genre of painting, a category, one kind of painting. It's a photo-realistiquesque artwork, depicting a particular image as it is, or as its commissioner wants it to be. However, most other genres of paintings can take literal tens of thousands of strokes to be remade and redone to express a specific expression that is subjective rather than just "making the eyebrow pretty".

A game can be even more complex than a painting, numerically, it is, because it involves dozens of different media, including painting artwork, and dozens of coders, writers, translators, a ****ton of different and human manpower to both power the subjective art and feel and the objective code. Balancing is not a matter of numbers, is a matter of feeling. A game might seem balanced with 3 factions, each with 10 different units, but balancing goes much, much farther than just a numbers game. Devs and modders use the code to change how the game feels, ya feel that?

Going back to my original point: you gotta know what you buy when you buy it. It's a game, not a carton of milk. It's complex, it takes time. You should've known TW are not the best keepers of promises, they're bad with deadlines, and their vanilla games are... somewhat lacking. You didn't know that? Well, should've researched that. You did know that? Well, then why are you complaining so much? If you take a step back and look at this rationally, you'll notice TW have been fairly consistent with their fixes, patches and promises throughout EA. Yeah, the game doesn't meet the expectations of most, but then again, it has been a 10 year old hypetrain for many, and that's a consequence of hypetrains.

Looking at TW's background, and Bannerlord is quite on par with median expectations for people who knew about the game in 2018-2020. Problem is, most of us here in the forums are here for far longer than that, and what we have today with 1.0.2 is what we expected back in may 2020. If you wanted the same company behaviour from Ubisoft on an Assassin's Creed game, you should've bought an Assassin's Creed game from Ubisoft, not TaleWorlds. They are different companies, with different goals and very different games. Same goes for CK and any other game.

Lastly, you gotta know what you buy. You bought a complex game under active development. It is a game, it is complex, it is hard to code something like this, balance it and still make it feel authentic, yet similar to previous games; it involves too many variables constantly in flux. No one from TaleWorlds has ever delivered to you a signed contract that dictated the game must be the way you want it to be in less than 3 years after EA release. Or have they? If they did, that'd be the scoop of the century around these parts. If not, then know what you buy: it is a game, not a manufactured piece of plastic and silicone to insert in moist orifices of a human body.

 

[FireBlazinCandy]

I hate to keep upping this thread, but by the gods, know what you buy. I am no amerkanski liberal free-marketeer from the land of hedge-fund=success, but you do need to know what you are buying. You have some personal responsibility.
Bannerlord is not a tetrapak carton of milk, with expiration date, a nice table of contents and clear-cut "cut here" marker. It's a game. Not just a game, but rather a medieval sandbox with tons of complex and interacting automated systems, including genetic 'pool' and royal succession (to a degree). Not to mention it is a software, which must be constantly updated and fixed, it is a game, and as you should know, despite agreeing to or not, games are art. And art can take decades to be "finished", and even so, they rarely are.

Yes, a realistic painting can be done in a matter of weeks, maybe months using traditional oil-paint. But a realistic painting is nothing but a genre of painting, a category, one kind of painting. It's a photo-realistiquesque artwork, depicting a particular image as it is, or as its commissioner wants it to be. However, most other genres of paintings can take literal tens of thousands of strokes to be remade and redone to express a specific expression that is subjective rather than just "making the eyebrow pretty".

A game can be even more complex than a painting, numerically, it is, because it involves dozens of different media, including painting artwork, and dozens of coders, writers, translators, a ****ton of different and human manpower to both power the subjective art and feel and the objective code. Balancing is not a matter of numbers, is a matter of feeling. A game might seem balanced with 3 factions, each with 10 different units, but balancing goes much, much farther than just a numbers game. Devs and modders use the code to change how the game feels, ya feel that?

Going back to my original point: you gotta know what you buy when you buy it. It's a game, not a carton of milk. It's complex, it takes time. You should've known TW are not the best keepers of promises, they're bad with deadlines, and their vanilla games are... somewhat lacking. You didn't know that? Well, should've researched that. You did know that? Well, then why are you complaining so much? If you take a step back and look at this rationally, you'll notice TW have been fairly consistent with their fixes, patches and promises throughout EA. Yeah, the game doesn't meet the expectations of most, but then again, it has been a 10 year old hypetrain for many, and that's a consequence of hypetrains.

Looking at TW's background, and Bannerlord is quite on par with median expectations for people who knew about the game in 2018-2020. Problem is, most of us here in the forums are here for far longer than that, and what we have today with 1.0.2 is what we expected back in may 2020. If you wanted the same company behaviour from Ubisoft on an Assassin's Creed game, you should've bought an Assassin's Creed game from Ubisoft, not TaleWorlds. They are different companies, with different goals and very different games. Same goes for CK and any other game.

Lastly, you gotta know what you buy. You bought a complex game under active development. It is a game, it is complex, it is hard to code something like this, balance it and still make it feel authentic, yet similar to previous games; it involves too many variables constantly in flux. No one from TaleWorlds has ever delivered to you a signed contract that dictated the game must be the way you want it to be in less than 3 years after EA release. Or have they? If they did, that'd be the scoop of the century around these parts. If not, then know what you buy: it is a game, not a manufactured piece of plastic and silicone to insert in moist orifices of a human body.

I'm sure these are all wonderful, well thought-out comments but I'm not reading that wall of text. Especially when your opener is:

I am no amerkanski liberal free-marketeer from the land of hedge-fund=success

 

[Askorti]

FireBlazinCandy

You wont get a date for a "finished" product because there isn't one. It doesn't exist. It was not conceived, and it will not until it comes. The only time when the date of the game being finished will be known is most likely after said date has already passed. And I'm pretty sure that you are fully aware of this, but you obstinately keep asking because you don't like the answers you are receiving.

 

[monoolho]

I'm sure these are all wonderful, well thought-out comments but I'm not reading that wall of text. Especially when your opener is:

The forum equivalent of this:

Spoiler: this:

Has the time to spend 3~4 hours complaining to everyone, even calling out TW employees.

Can't read 5 paragraphs.

Gets annoyed because of libtard comment.

So typical

Spoiler: oh, so typical... like i've seen this a thousand times before

 

[FireBlazinCandy]

The forum equivalent of this:

Spoiler: this:

Has the time to spend 3~4 hours complaining to everyone, even calling out TW employees.

Can't read 5 paragraphs.

Gets annoyed because of libtard comment.

So typical

Spoiler: oh, so typical... like i've seen this a thousand times before

Pretty much spot on.

You wont get a date for a "finished" product because there isn't one. It doesn't exist. It was not conceived

How to run a company 101. I'm sure TW told you that this is the case, or did you just make this up for the sake of argument.

Uhh..I've stopped asking though didn't I? No I didn't like the answer I was getting. but I stopped asking so not sure what you're point is.

 

[stevepine]

FireBlazinCandy

You wont get a date for a "finished" product because there isn't one. It doesn't exist. It was not conceived, and it will not until it comes. The only time when the date of the game being finished will be known is most likely after said date has already passed. And I'm pretty sure that you are fully aware of this, but you obstinately keep asking because you don't like the answers you are receiving.

No one expects a 100% finished product these days (sadly). But there are different and varying degrees of 'unfinished' ...... and this game basically lacking a half-decent end-game is NOT acceptable ... for lots of people here. So, yes, they bug the devs.... as they damn well should! (Even if they know it's futile).

That's not obstinate.

It's called having some vague remnant of standards.

 

[Askorti]

No one expects a 100% finished product these days (sadly). But there are different degrees of 'unfinished' ...... and this game basically not even having a half-decent end-game is NOT acceptable... for lots of people here. So, yes, they bug the devs.... as they damn well should! (Even if they know it's futile).

That's not obstinate.

It's called having some vague remnant of standards.

And what good does bugging the devs do? They have their plans for the future, which don't even seem to have an end point. And to be completely honest, I'm pretty sure that no matter how much of their plans they accomplish, they will never satisfy us. They will always come up short of our expectations. Partially because of how indeed unfinished the game is, and how much improvement it needs, and partially because our expectations have been unhealthily inflated. Both by our own hopes and by TW's promises and the passage of time. After all, surely the game should have been better after over 12 years of development, right?

Also, out of curiosity. What even is a 100% finished product in the world of video games? Does such a thing even exist in practice?

 

[FireBlazinCandy]

Also, out of curiosity. What even is a 100% finished product in the world of video games? Does such a thing even exist in practice?

Jesus mate. It's always the same responses. "But what does it mean to be 100% completed" - hypothetical airy-fairy comments. It's a weak rebuttal to @stevepine comment where they themselves said it doesn't need to be 100% complete.

The same thing saying "you'll never please everyone", we just want them to meet the bare minimum of our expectations, which is a functioning game with the features that have been left in, fully implemented and working. You know, the things you stated yourself they promised us. Not a fifth of a dialogue system, or a fifth of a diplomacy system, broken AI, broken save files, bad textures, broken prisoner management, broken companions and wanderers, the servers in multiplayer etc.. you know, the majority of the mechanics in the game?

It's also not bugging the Devs, they can chose to respond or not. It's calling them out for their ****ty behaviour and practices because trying to talk to them isnt working anymore. It went from " I'll pass it on to the relevant developer" to "not in our vision" to *radio silence*. I bet it was all smoke and mirrors to keep us on board long enough for free QA until they released to console. Timing seems too perfect.

 

[Mad Vader]

Probably, but who’s got a time machine to reset TW’s corporate culture 12 years ago? Would Armagan have reinvested his profits in Bannerlord, if a Project Manager had given him a clear glimpse of the future? Who knows.

The problem is that lessons have not been learned, or worse, they gave up on planning and tracking after failing at planning and tracking, and the fault lies at the top. It's likely their next project will suffer from the same deficiencies: it will be too little, too late, because someone can't be assed to manage tasks and drive people.
I'm guessing that their internal planning is shot simply because they can't give estimates even after a decade of experience with Bannerlord work. This is bad and they should feel bad.

 

[five bucks]

Does anyone remember earlier in this thread where I said aggressive criticism gets responses and constructive criticism doesn't? And people told me I was wrong?

Like a month ago I asked Dejan for clarification what was meant by the points on the release plan. Nothing.

Yesterday Duh says he'll answer questions, so I ask for clarification again on those points. Nothing yet today

 

[Apocal]

Have TW told you these things:

Yes:

I wish we had all game design 8 years ago (when we start this project) and we follow that design document. Probably we could finish game sooner if that kind of development is followed. If this was the case all these problems would be already solved. We are trying to add features one by one and this is not best way to create a detailed game like Bannerlord because all different features are connected each other and we should think all together not one by one. Adding features one by one is dangerous (can broke existing mechanics). However Warband is also developed that way too and be a great game. But even Warband example I think this is hard way to develop a game.

They kinda just free-balled the planning and stuff.

Does anyone remember earlier in this thread where I said aggressive criticism gets responses and constructive criticism doesn't? And people told me I was wrong?

I feel like if aggression actually worked to any real end, we would have substantial gameplay changes. For the most part, devs don't even look at the forum, so you might as well be yelling at your mirror.

 

[FireBlazinCandy]

Does anyone remember earlier in this thread where I said aggressive criticism gets responses and constructive criticism doesn't? And people told me I was wrong?

Like a month ago I asked Dejan for clarification what was meant by the points on the release plan. Nothing.

Yesterday Duh says he'll answer questions, so I ask for clarification again on those points. Nothing yet today

I got a while morning with @Duh_TaleWorlds (bed ridden with COVID and not much else to do) where he was only too happy to entertain me and my aggression about the current state of the game. As soon totalgarbage, fleason and others started asking him questions about the future plans he *vanished*, after specifically asking me a couple of times "do you have any questions about the future plans".

Why? I guess because they're tired of constantly being a disappointment and typing out the words "were not looking into that" "unlikely" or something along those lines.

Yes:

They kinda just free-balled the planning and stuff.


I feel like if aggression actually worked to any real end, we would have substantial gameplay changes. For the most part, devs don't even look at the forum, so you might as well be yelling at your mirror.

What a ****ing stupid way to make a game. No wonder why this guy left.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Does anyone remember earlier in this thread where I said aggressive criticism gets responses and constructive criticism doesn't? And people told me I was wrong?

To be honest this ******* is just one among dozens who have posted angry comments about the developers over the past couple of months. I can think of hundreds of posts @ing the devs calling them scumbags or whatever and getting no response.

 

[stevepine]

And what good does bugging the devs do? They have their plans for the future, which don't even seem to have an end point. And to be completely honest, I'm pretty sure that no matter how much of their plans they accomplish, they will never satisfy us. They will always come up short of our expectations. Partially because of how indeed unfinished the game is, and how much improvement it needs, and partially because our expectations have been unhealthily inflated. Both by our own hopes and by TW's promises and the passage of time. After all, surely the game should have been better after over 12 years of development, right?

Also, out of curiosity. What even is a 100% finished product in the world of video games? Does such a thing even exist in practice?

Ok. Now this is subjective .... of course .. but I will give you an answer to your question.

What is a finished game these days? ( Not a 100 % finished game ... because I never said that was needed)...

A finished game needs: a decent beginning .... a middle... and an ending.

An end game where you really feel like it's worth putting in the effort to get there.

Right now, Bannerlord's so called 'end game' is so deeply broken and bland that it might as well not exist.

Bannerlord's 'end game' is so bad that instead of inspiring you to reach it... it actually does the opposite: it makes many players want to quit, uninstall the game and wait a year for modders to fix it.

So yeah.. what is a finished game these days?

A game with a proper beginning , a middle, and an end to aim for. Even with lots of bugs and some missing features.. you still need those three stages working decently ... that's if you want your product to be taken seriously.

Bannerlord lacks this even now. And that is not ok.
(Even by the very low standards of 'modern gaming').

 

[FireBlazinCandy]

To be honest this ******* is just one among dozens who have posted angry comments about the developers over the past couple of months. I can think of hundreds of posts @ing the devs calling them scumbags or whatever and getting no response.

You see, I and the dozens others you mention have standards. You have this .. the most stupid thing I've read on these forums.

Nobody in any large project knows ever how long it will take.

 

[monoolho]

You see, I and the dozens others you mention have standards.

If "big wordy brain hurty" can be considered a standard, and I am generous that way... I've got to remind you that throwing tantrums, accusing people and winging are not the marks of a sofisticated mind who holds standards. Those are the evindences of a spoiled brat.

Wanting mac 'n cheese for breakfast everyday is not so much a standard, but rather the unruled desire of someone having a bout of a hissy fit.

Back on track: we all know the game is unfinished. Your powers of observation are on par with everyone on this forum.
You wanted a date for patches, TW doesnt do that.
You treat an under development game as a similar product as a bad dragon erotic conpanion, it is not.

Your "standard" dictates you paid less for an EA game and now are demanding a "finished product" whatever the hell that may be? That's not how game development and consumption works, I'm afraid to give you such news.

Inb4 you call me a white knight... just know you are wrong.

 

[five bucks]

To be honest this ******* is just one among dozens who have posted angry comments about the developers over the past couple of months. I can think of hundreds of posts @ing the devs calling them scumbags or whatever and getting no response.

Ya but there seems to be a higher strikerate/ratio.

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

As soon totalgarbage, fleason and others started asking him questions about the future plans he *vanished*, after specifically asking me a couple of times "do you have any questions about the future plans".

Why? I guess because they're tired of constantly being a disappointment and typing out the words "were not looking into that" "unlikely" or something along those lines.

While the question may have hit a nerve for you, it should be obvious by now that I have no problem with statements like that. No need for false claims

Yesterday Duh says he'll answer questions, so I ask for clarification again on those points. Nothing yet today

Blazing candy is fairly simple to respond to since he only has a single question to which there is an established, public response. Content questions can require some verification as despite any impression to the contrary I am not omniscient. I do have a day job and a life to take care of as well. Naturally, that doesn't mean I won't reply. You, of all people, should know that. Peddling a narrative of "aggression furthers interaction" is also questionable at best.