Devs and "Community" Employees Are Averaging Less than 1 Post Per Day - Where Is The Engagement?

[TurkishEconomy]

Hey All,

So I starting putting together a quick histogram of either previously active devs and/or TW 'community' employees.

One thing that alarmed me is that on average, over the last 60 days, both groups are averaging less than 1 post per day here.

While I can understand that a job expectation/deliverable for the devs may not include interacting with the community on the forums, I'm having difficulty rationalizing this for the community team. Would TW really think it's appropriate that community ambassadors, who they are paying (or on payroll), are not interfacing with the fans of the game during their work week?

Something just doesn't feel right. Either something is fundamentally wrong with TW's culture, or we need to raise this concern to TW's leadership and hope they can performance manage accordingly. Thoughts?

 

[Apocal]

Hey All,

So I starting putting together a quick histogram of either previously active devs and/or TW 'community' employees.

One thing that alarmed me is that on average, over the last 60 days, both groups are averaging less than 1 post per day here.

While I can understand that a job expectation/deliverable for the devs may not include interacting with the community on the forums, I'm having difficulty rationalizing this for the community team. Would TW really think it's appropriate that community ambassadors, who they are paying (or on payroll), are not interfacing with the fans of the game during their work week?

Something just doesn't feel right. Either something is fundamentally wrong with TW's culture, or we need to raise this concern to TW's leadership and hope they can performance manage accordingly. Thoughts?

Game released, so now they are haunting streams and stuff.

 

[bm01]

It's not caused by the release at all, because it's nothing new. But it used to be better (like a year or two ago). I feel like there's a correlation between the level of involvement community managers and devs (but mostly devs) have in forum discussions and general toxicity. For community managers, well it's their job to handle that, but not for devs. When half of the posts (not really half but it could be perceived that way) are about how incompetent you are, how you should hire modders instead, how you scammed people, no wonder you don't want to read them if you don't have to.

 

[stevepine]

They have always been unbelievably bad at communicating but quite apart from that.... they just don't care now. That's painfully clear.

We aren't a community to them. We are a collection of wallets.

The thing that gets me isnt even the lack of communication though. It's the B.S. It's the many broken promises... and the broken features. The feeling that they are making this game in a lazy way... and on the cheap. Even though they probably aren't.

We are just a source of cash to them. Such a dumb way to treat people with a passion for the M+B series.

 

[Aurex]

I feel like there's a correlation between the level of involvement community managers and devs (but mostly devs) have in forum discussions and general toxicity

It goes like this:
-Taleworlds hypes the game up, makes us wait years.
-Forum is active, people are speculating, having fun with memes and discussing everything in a civil way.
-Taleworlds releases Early Access to the hyped playerbase, it's barebones and downright bad.
-Forum is very active, people are suggesting how to improve things and reporting bugs but are generally very hopeful.
-Taleworlds is tone-deaf and responds vaguely to suggestions or bug reports (if they do at all.) Progress is VERY slow.
-Forum is still active, people are starting to realize that maybe things won't be all peachy, some complaining begins.
-Taleworlds deflects or ignores concerns, since they have a "vision" of what the game should be like and there's no roadmap or anything.
-Forum is less active, three main camps form: Hopeful people, Doomers, White Knights.
-Taleworlds has two people occasionally saying: "Yeah, I forwarded it to the devs." No meaningful changes are made.
*Years pass*
-Forum is a wasteland filled with mostly Doomers and White Knights. The Hopeful people are probably someplace else, or lurking.
-Taleworlds is silent, development is almost non-existent, no major features are added and those that are do little to improve the experience.
-Forum is basically Mad Max: Fury Road without the half-naked girls.
-Taleworlds do the Tone-deaf Gigachad move and act like they've done great things and release is near! Game is still the same as EA.
-Forum is basically The Road with Viggo Mortensen.
-Taleworlds releases the game and it's basically the same game it was two years before. They cease communicating completely.
-Today.

Long story short: if you let your vase out in the rain for two years and don't plant anything in it, don't expect there to be anything but mold, weeds and decay.

 

[froggyluv]

It goes like this:
-Taleworlds hypes the game up, makes us wait years.
-Forum is active, people are speculating, having fun with memes and discussing everything in a civil way.
-Taleworlds releases Early Access to the hyped playerbase, it's barebones and downright bad.
-Forum is very active, people are suggesting how to improve things and reporting bugs but are generally very hopeful.
-Taleworlds is tone-deaf and responds vaguely to suggestions or bug reports (if they do at all.) Progress is VERY slow.
-Forum is still active, people are starting to realize that maybe things won't be all peachy, some complaining begins.
-Taleworlds deflects or ignores concerns, since they have a "vision" of what the game should be like and there's no roadmap or anything.
-Forum is less active, three main camps form: Hopeful people, Doomers, White Knights.
-Taleworlds has two people occasionally saying: "Yeah, I forwarded it to the devs." No meaningful changes are made.
*Years pass*
-Forum is a wasteland filled with mostly Doomers and White Knights. The Hopeful people are probably someplace else, or lurking.
-Taleworlds is silent, development is almost non-existent, no major features are added and those that are do little to improve the experience.
-Forum is basically Mad Max: Fury Road without the half-naked girls.
-Taleworlds do the Tone-deaf Gigachad move and act like they've done great things and release is near! Game is still the same as EA.
-Forum is basically The Road with Viggo Mortensen.
-Taleworlds releases the game and it's basically the same game it was two years before. They cease communicating completely.
-Today.

F'n brilliant mate

 

[Lord Irontoe]

-Forum is basically The Road with Viggo Mortensen.

Perfect metaphor, except without the kid to provide a little hope for the future. We've become more like Robert Duvall's character with the cardboard shoes.

 

[Aurex]

Perfect metaphor, except without the kid to provide a little hope for the future. We've become more like Robert Duvall's character with the cardboard shoes.

The cannibals ate the kid. And the

Spoiler

family at the end ate the dog!

 

[bm01]

...
Long story short: if you let your vase out in the rain for two years and don't plant anything in it, don't expect there to be anything but mold, weeds and decay.

Thing is, that's the view many share here but it's mostly the forums that are full of either disappointed or toxic people, and at the same time numbers say the game sold well, is decently received (not amazing but 85%+ on steam is pretty good), and is fairly popular. Why would they feel the need to question themselves, take suggestions, and listen to grumpy and never satisfied people?

I'm not saying the game is in a good state, and I agree it could have been much more, and also that some bugs are outright unacceptable for a release. Fact is, in this day and age, this is obviously good enough.

 

[Mad Vader]

It goes like this:
*good stuff*

Long story short: if you let your vase out in the rain for two years and don't plant anything in it, don't expect there to be anything but mold, weeds and decay.

That was awesome. Somewhat pessimistic, but funny and hits the nail on the head.

Thing is, that's the view many share here but it's mostly the forums that are full of either disappointed or toxic people, and at the same time numbers say the game sold well, is decently received (not amazing but 85%+ on steam is pretty good), and is fairly popular. Why would they feel the need to question themselves, take suggestions, and listen to grumpy and never satisfied people?

You aren't following the game. Your deflections "but it sold well" and "it has an average Steam rating" are not at all substantial, nor do they justify the level of poor engagement in EA or the slow and erratic pace of development.
The developers and their support people are pros, paid to do this, and if there's a level of toxicity on different forums (not just here, it's on Reddit too), it's THEIR problem, caused by them and solvable by them, by addressing community concerns. If you are psychologically unable to read other people's complaints, don't read them.

 

[bm01]

You aren't following the game. Your deflections "but it sold well" and "it has an average Steam rating" are not at all substantial, nor do they justify the level of poor engagement in EA or the slow and erratic pace of development.
The developers and their support people are pros, paid to do this, and if there's a level of toxicity on different forums (not just here, it's on Reddit too), it's THEIR problem, caused by them and solvable by them, by addressing community concerns. If you are psychologically unable to read other people's complaints, don't read them.

What are you even talking about? The game selling well and receiving good ratings is literally all that matters. That's what they work for. That perfectly justifies what you consider a low level of engagement and slow pace of development. Of course that's not something you'll hear any company say because it isn't good PR, but do you really think they're unhappy about how things turned out, or they consider it a failure? Like, I perfectly understand the frustration, but contrary to what you're saying, that's YOUR problem, not theirs.

Not following the game btw.

 

[Mad Vader]

What are you even talking about? The game selling well and receiving good ratings is literally all that matters. That's what they work for. That perfectly justifies what you consider a low level of engagement and slow pace of development. Of course that's not something you'll hear any company say because it isn't good PR, but do you really think they're unhappy about how things turned out, or they consider it a failure? Like, I perfectly understand the frustration, but contrary to what you're saying, that's YOUR problem, not theirs.

No, the game has a problem, not me. That the devs can afford not to care is irrelevant. The game has multiple documented problems that make it average, that's the problem. Why do you keep deflecting from those problems is frankly weird. If you like it, play it, but don't try to police complaints, particularly when you have no substantial arguments to offer.

 

[NPC99]

It goes like this:
-Taleworlds hypes the game up, makes us wait years.
-Forum is active, people are speculating, having fun with memes and discussing everything in a civil way.
-Taleworlds releases Early Access to the hyped playerbase, it's barebones and downright bad.
-Forum is very active, people are suggesting how to improve things and reporting bugs but are generally very hopeful.
-Taleworlds is tone-deaf and responds vaguely to suggestions or bug reports (if they do at all.) Progress is VERY slow.
-Forum is still active, people are starting to realize that maybe things won't be all peachy, some complaining begins.
-Taleworlds deflects or ignores concerns, since they have a "vision" of what the game should be like and there's no roadmap or anything.
-Forum is less active, three main camps form: Hopeful people, Doomers, White Knights.
-Taleworlds has two people occasionally saying: "Yeah, I forwarded it to the devs." No meaningful changes are made.
*Years pass*
-Forum is a wasteland filled with mostly Doomers and White Knights. The Hopeful people are probably someplace else, or lurking.
-Taleworlds is silent, development is almost non-existent, no major features are added and those that are do little to improve the experience.
-Forum is basically Mad Max: Fury Road without the half-naked girls.
-Taleworlds do the Tone-deaf Gigachad move and act like they've done great things and release is near! Game is still the same as EA.
-Forum is basically The Road with Viggo Mortensen.
-Taleworlds releases the game and it's basically the same game it was two years before. They cease communicating completely.
-Today.

Long story short: if you let your vase out in the rain for two years and don't plant anything in it, don't expect there to be anything but mold, weeds and decay.

IMO apart from the bug/crash reports section of this forum, there are too few of us posting anything likely to attract much engagement. The forums are pretty inactive. Any constructive comments about roadmaps/design etc. have already been made multiple times.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

What are you even talking about? The game selling well and receiving good ratings is literally all that matters. That's what they work for. That perfectly justifies what you consider a low level of engagement and slow pace of development. Of course that's not something you'll hear any company say because it isn't good PR, but do you really think they're unhappy about how things turned out, or they consider it a failure? Like, I perfectly understand the frustration, but contrary to what you're saying, that's YOUR problem, not theirs.

Not following the game btw.

You're right in that they got their sales and don't have to care about anything else, but in the process they gutted their community and killed off the enthusiasm of their most devoted fans. Armagan and Taleworlds were once beloved by the fanbase. They had a very enviable reputation as makers of one of the best reviewed steam games of all time, but they squandered all that loyalty and goodwill by keeping the fans at a distance instead of embracing them. They might as well be just another anonymous mobile game maker now. Good luck building enthusiasm for their next title.

 

[stevepine]

You're right in that they got their sales and don't have to care about anything else, but in the process they gutted their community and killed off the enthusiasm of their most devoted fans. Armagan and Taleworlds were once beloved by the fanbase. They had a very enviable reputation as makers of one of the best reviewed steam games of all time, but they squandered all that loyalty and goodwill by keeping the fans at a distance instead of embracing them. They might as well be just another anonymous mobile game maker now. Good luck building enthusiasm for their next title.

This is the point. The reputation of their whole company has taken a real hit. The whole story of Bannerlord's development is known now.

Over a decade in development.... and then an under-cooked product (see the IGN or RockPaperShotgun reviews)

And then add a community treated like absolute s* * t.

These things harm a gaming company. They really do. Anyone who cannot see that is... well..... blind.

 

[FireBlazinCandy]

If you see dejan pop back in to give a flat, vague response to something you know there is a patch/hotfix coming within a few days. They don't respond in the in-between times anymore.

A flaccid hotfix (or patch as they like to call it) will drop and they will stick around for a day or two collecting free QA testing before disappearing into the night again.

 

[Mad Vader]

Still a better love story than a lot of other indie games.

The fans were left holding a plastic banner, while Taleworlds sailed their yachts into the sunset. That was romantic.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Maybe TW has cracked down on employee interactions after official release.

 

[Apocal]

Maybe TW has cracked down on employee interactions after official release.

Nah, I've seen at least one (not sure which one, they just had a generic name on Twitch) pop up in a stream.

 

[five bucks]

numbers say the game sold well

So did tickets to Woodstock '99.

(not amazing but 85%+ on steam is pretty good)

That's actually average by Steam standards.

Why would they feel the need to question themselves, take suggestions, and listen to grumpy and never satisfied people?

How can you say that everyone here will never be satisfied, when Taleworlds hasn't even done the minimum for the game to be considered satisfactory by reasonable standards? Half the features in the game are unimplemented or don't work properly.

If Bannerlord's features all worked and were ingame, many more people here would be somewhat satisfied. But we still don't have that after 2 years of early access.

That's why buyers are rightfully "grumpy". People were helpful and constructive with their feedback for a very long time. Those people got ignored. Looking at past developer posts, it's mainly when a lot of people get aggressive and loudly critical that Taleworlds finally responds.

I'm not saying the game is in a good state, and I agree it could have been much more, and also that some bugs are outright unacceptable for a release. Fact is, in this day and age, this is obviously good enough.

Saying "but someone else did something bad, so doing this bad thing is okay" is fallacious reasoning. Call out bad business practices wherever you see them, rather than making excuses for bad business practices, otherwise the industry will continue slowly going down in quality.

What are you even talking about? The game selling well and receiving good ratings is literally all that matters

Taleworlds doesn't need you to stick up for them, they have PR people who they pay to not be allowed to do that.

That perfectly justifies what you consider a low level of engagement and slow pace of development.

By industry standards this is undeniably a slow pace of development for a 100-employee company. Bannerlord has been in development for 10+ years. The longest-ever game in development, Duke Nukem Forever, took 14 years to complete.

but contrary to what you're saying, that's YOUR problem, not theirs.

Taleworlds is an indie publisher that relies heavily on word of mouth. That's why Warband was so successful, and in turn why Bannerlord was successful from that good reputation. This series is literally the only one Taleworlds has, so it is in their benefit to ensure the community - who will be the ones talking about their next game - isn't bitter because of no communication and a game left broken.

Now let me ask you: How does it benefit you at all to be whiteknighting for Taleworlds right now? Why are you telling people they shouldn't criticise the game's incomplete state and lack of communication and progress?