Dev Blog 21/02/19

[parsehtml]<p><img class="frame" src="https://www.taleworlds.com/Images/News/blog_post_78_taleworldswebsite.jpg" alt="" width="575" height="290" /></p> <p>Mount & Blade games have always primarily focused on the core gameplay mechanics over the visual appeal of the game world. And while this is something which remains true for Bannerlord, we have worked extensively on improving the overall visual quality of the game with the aim of making the experience more immersive and enjoyable for players. In this week’s blog, we would like to talk about one of the improvements we are currently working on, which will help to bring battles to life and will give players a real sense of the gritty and brutal nature of warfare.</p></br> [/parsehtml]Read more at: http://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Bannerlord/Blog/98

 

[xdj1nn]

I made a post about this a while ago: bigger textures and higher polygon models do not necessarily look good, while the best looking professional stuff is also the best optimised. The gulf between an average modder and an average professional 3d modeller is a lot bigger now than it was in 2010 and there are very few people around on the forums right now who could surpass the current bannerlord assets in quality, despite all my criticisms of the latter. 3d modelling is now more specialised than its ever been. Ever wondered why there are so few overhaul mods for more recent games?

As far as I know most recent games mean also more advanced technology, and if developers themselves do not give the tools it seems hard for me to do a mod the proper way. Also I have faith in the community so far, I am sure they will adapt but Bannerlord will see a big wave of players. Many trailers and gameplay videos from official sources have over 1million views including one I was watching again the other day which had 3 millions something. I am sure it will be big enough, maybe not skyrim big, but definitely large enough to attract modders. 3D modelling and animation in general always was a pain in the ass, I started downloading mods for the first time for Oblivion. 

Let's start a petition to ask TW to give us 3ds licenses, or Maya \o/ hahaha 

I made a post about this a while ago: bigger textures and higher polygon models do not necessarily look good, while the best looking professional stuff is also the best optimised. The gulf between an average modder and an average professional 3d modeller is a lot bigger now than it was in 2010 and there are very few people around on the forums right now who could surpass the current bannerlord assets in quality, despite all my criticisms of the latter. 3d modelling is now more specialised than its ever been. Ever wondered why there are so few overhaul mods for more recent games?

Skyrim Disagrees

 

[DanAngleland]

I don't want to seem like a nitpicker but I want to bring up a detail I have noticed that has been bothering me for some time. The chainmail (or maille).
It looks to be a butted form that not only is much easier to force apart but has quite wide ring gaps. It also has the shiny look of galvanized steel.

Spoiler

I would really love to see this:

Spoiler

Not only are the rings not overly large but the overlap with the washer shape makes the mail not only more protective but better looking.

I know this is a personal preference and probably can be easily modded in but I would be very happy to see this in native. I am unaware if this has been discussed before but much like the changes people ask for in leather armor I think it should be considered.

I don't know if it looks butted particularly, all I can really see from the screenshot is that they look rounded (and shiny), which doesn't mean they aren't proper riveted links- when the ring is left rounded, only a small arc of the ring gets flattened out so a rivet can be put through. However I do prefer other maille that we've seen in the game, admittedly not for some time now but in one of the videos from a few years back there was a Vlandian maille hauberk with fairly large rings, but they had the flat, matte look that you give an example of Ostrogoth and which I too prefer. I don't think that I've seen it since (or a similar looking item with smaller rings); I really hope that it is still in the game. If there was to be just one type of maille texture in the game, I sincerely hope it isn't the one we see in these shots, which looks ok to me but unexciting.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

I don't want to seem like a nitpicker but I want to bring up a detail I have noticed that has been bothering me for some time. The chainmail (or maille).
It looks to be a butted form that not only is much easier to force apart but has quite wide ring gaps. It also has the shiny look of galvanized steel.

Spoiler

I would really love to see this:

Spoiler

Not only are the rings not overly large but the overlap with the washer shape makes the mail not only more protective but better looking.

I know this is a personal preference and probably can be easily modded in but I would be very happy to see this in native. I am unaware if this has been discussed before but much like the changes people ask for in leather armor I think it should be considered.

I don't know if it looks butted particularly, all I can really see from the screenshot is that they look rounded (and shiny), which doesn't mean they aren't proper riveted links- when the ring is left rounded, only a small arc of the ring gets flattened out so a rivet can be put through. However I do prefer other maille that we've seen in the game, admittedly not for some time now but in one of the videos from a few years back there was a Vlandian maille hauberk with fairly large rings, but they had the flat, matte look that you give an example of Ostrogoth and which I too prefer. I don't think that I've seen it since (or a similar looking item with smaller rings); I really hope that it is still in the game. If there was to be just one type of maille texture in the game, I sincerely hope it isn't the one we see in these shots, which looks ok to me but unexciting.

Spoiler: nitpicking level over 9000 but...

 

[Syndrella]

I can understand why so many peoples are unhappy about these blogs and overall with the game developement but in the gaming industry there are longer and shorter time projects. If they have had in the start a game engine and they does not need to make one from scratch then we could have been played the game in 2016-17. I am aware of they are a medium size gaming studio and their skills and options are shown in how they made warband or the other games in their portfolio. They improved but maybe they reworking what they made because there are issues with the systems which built in the game or they just feel that is not really imressive as they thought at first time.

8 year developement is a long developement time but we don't know when they started working on the game directly. The engine what they wanted is an in house engine which created in order to be moddable in some part so we could make easier mods in the final result. Also we don't know their funds and how much money they could have saved or spend if they licence an engine which is not their own. Probably they could have use the u3-4 engine or unity but then their game would not be as moddable as they wanted and every developer who not familiar with an engine are willing to make one which fits to them and which is comfortable to use.

Many of you guys pointed out a lot of things and some are good some are the usual defend/cry on devs but it is normal because the life is short and those whom were in their 20-30's soon probably could not focus on the gaming because life is happens and family/school/work is a priority.

This blog was not extremly interesting and as others stated this is a reused blog pretty much because these features was shown in the past.

The reason why they cannot do streams or just make more intersting blogs is simply because there is nothing what they can shown from the game, If we look at the 2016-17 gameplay videos the game much likely completed and there should be polishing and existing system reworks for fine tuning but pretty much this. I suppose something went wrong with the developement but they does not want to confront with the playerbase like most of the devs they are trying to hide stuffs till it is really finished or hope we won't know the truth in some case. There are devs whom can apologize if they failed something but I think Taleworlds just working on a slow pace and they just wish to make a fine product. That is their only excuse after a long developement because they know their playerbase / investors are going to be unhappy if something going wrong. Taleworlds is an independent studio so there are no tight sheldues when the game needs to be done so they can experiment.

The long developement time means nothing in the term of quality but can help a bit. You can make a good game in a month if you know how to do things and have the skill / creativity to do it. Those whom works in larger teams needs communicate and share ideas and these meetings means different ideas and ways to develop the game and it is pretty much can be a wasted time if they make 5-10 end game version based on their developers opinions or just follow 1-2 main ending. This was just an example but the game developement is still a time consuming business and they need to make it clear what is their aim. They have maybe enough funds to finish the game and experiment with it otherwise they just cancelled the game long ago if they could not finish it.

Also under some youtube video some devs commented and that make me a bit optimist so maybe this will be the last year then we will get this game in 2019 or 2020 christmas. That is natural they won't give us a release day info because they learned from other studios whom did this and exactly that happend what happend with them in 2016-17. They failed to deliver the game and they harmed their reputation with promised but not delivered stuff.

I am not defending nor attacking them I am just doing somethig else and when they are finished I will know when to come. We cannot do anything about it just wait or play something else. Defending, bashing, arguing with them is pointless because that won't sped up the developement time and they know their problems too and I am sure they noticed their communication is pretty lack but hey, not everyone should be talkative. There are devs whom talk about the game a lot there are others whom work silently and then release it when noone expected. The surprise effect can work both way.

Ps : Sorry for the grammar but I hope you guys got it what I wished to say. See you around.

 

[NPC99]

I don't want to seem like a nitpicker but I want to bring up a detail I have noticed that has been bothering me for some time. The chainmail (or maille).
It looks to be a butted form that not only is much easier to force apart but has quite wide ring gaps. It also has the shiny look of galvanized steel.

Spoiler

I would really love to see this:

Spoiler

Not only are the rings not overly large but the overlap with the washer shape makes the mail not only more protective but better looking.

I know this is a personal preference and probably can be easily modded in but I would be very happy to see this in native. I am unaware if this has been discussed before but much like the changes people ask for in leather armor I think it should be considered.

I don't know if it looks butted particularly, all I can really see from the screenshot is that they look rounded (and shiny), which doesn't mean they aren't proper riveted links- when the ring is left rounded, only a small arc of the ring gets flattened out so a rivet can be put through. However I do prefer other maille that we've seen in the game, admittedly not for some time now but in one of the videos from a few years back there was a Vlandian maille hauberk with fairly large rings, but they had the flat, matte look that you give an example of Ostrogoth and which I too prefer. I don't think that I've seen it since (or a similar looking item with smaller rings); I really hope that it is still in the game. If there was to be just one type of maille texture in the game, I sincerely hope it isn't the one we see in these shots, which looks ok to me but unexciting.

Spoiler: nitpicking level over 9000 but...

I like the Kingdom of Arda chainmail too. However, it will also be subject to stretching and deformation during animations and where characters are a different size from the armour. If we choose to create a fatter character that will stretch any armour polys/texture he/she wears.

 

[John_M]

Spoiler: nitpicking level over 9000 but...

I like the Kingdom of Arda chainmail too. However, it will also be subject to stretching and deformation during animations and where characters are a different size from the armour. If we choose to create a fatter character that will stretch any armour polys/texture he/she wears.

The chainmail I made in that image is butted, old, and low quality imo. The main thing that is good about it is that it has really high resolution, likely higher than anything that will be in Bannerlord.
In more recent armours that are higher quality I make are still butted. With tests that I have done riveted chainmail is barely noticeable unless you have high resolution textures. The chainmail in this blog looks similarly low resolution. So the question comes done to doing extra hours of work to add something barely noticeable, but better looking and more accurate.

And on deformation, I believe higher poly models and better rigging would help with reducing it(If its not part of the original texture). So the deformation is spread smoother across more triangles. Though they may be limiting themselves to a set number of polygons per armour.

 

[NPC99]

Spoiler: nitpicking level over 9000 but...

I like the Kingdom of Arda chainmail too. However, it will also be subject to stretching and deformation during animations and where characters are a different size from the armour. If we choose to create a fatter character that will stretch any armour polys/texture he/she wears.

The chainmail I made in that image is butted, old, and low quality imo. The main thing that is good about it is that it has really high resolution, likely higher than anything that will be in Bannerlord.
In more recent armours that are higher quality I make are still butted. With tests that I have done riveted chainmail is barely noticeable unless you have high resolution textures. The chainmail in this blog looks similarly low resolution. So the question comes done to doing extra hours of work to add something barely noticeable, but better looking and more accurate.

And on deformation, I believe higher poly models and better rigging would help with reducing it(If its not part of the original texture). So the deformation is spread smoother across more triangles. Though they may be limiting themselves to a set number of polygons per armour.

What resolution are you using for KOA textures?
33. Any information on average texture sizes? Will 4k be supported?
Average texture size is 2k. You can add 4K textures to the game.
https://steamcommunity.com/games/261550/announcements/detail/1464090667824385857

Even with higher poly meshes, I would expect some deformation of the skirt of a hauberk from the skeleton’s thighs when running.

 

[John_M]

In Terco's image that chainmail is on a 4k sheet.
Something like this is on 2048x2048(trying to match Bannerlord's average)

Spoiler

Yeah stretching and what not will always be there, just mainly how smooth it will be. And hopefully with the cloth simulation chainmail will have its own function where it is "stiffer"
When designing the armour they can also try to put chainmail in places without a lot of joint mobility, so the stretching is an a material that is less noticeable like cloth.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

@John.M, ...and I still think yours is infinitely better.

So this is due to a model design problem then? or how is that? 

 

[NPC99]

In Terco's image that chainmail is on a 4k sheet.
Something like this is on 2048x2048(trying to match Bannerlord's average)

Spoiler

Yeah stretching and what not will always be there, just mainly how smooth it will be. And hopefully with the cloth simulation chainmail will have its own function where it is "stiffer"
When designing the armour they can also try to put chainmail in places without a lot of joint mobility, so the stretching is an a material that is less noticeable like cloth.

Thanks. Hopefully 4k will be viable for high end armours without impacting FPS. I’d be interested in more detail on cloth physics, but a blog based on that would probably bore most formites.

@John.M, ...and I still think yours is infinitely better.

Spoiler

So this is due to a model design problem then? or how is that? 

It’s caused by the torso twisting animation distorting parts of the mesh. The higher poly the mesh the less distortion but the lower battle sizes. Patterns such as chainmail etc. flag such distortions far more than plain fabric. Cloth physics won’t help mesh stretching on the abdomen as it will only be applied to dangling fabric/mail, hair, flags, plumes and tassels.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

@NPC99, So it's a matter that can't be fixed?

 

[John_M]

Spoiler

So this is due to a model design problem then? or how is that? 

I would guess that is a rigging problem(not something I have much experience in honestly). The bones in the shoulder(red) and hips(blue) have different pulls on the model. The left of the image shows what I suspect is in game right now, the right is what I think it should be.  The colour representing how hard the bones pull on that part of the armour.

Spoiler

 

[NPC99]

@NPC99, So it's a matter that can't be fixed?

All things are a matter of compromise. The main constraint is the lack of power in a consumer’s PC. With more cores and memory more will become possible. TW have to balance mesh distortions vs battle size aspirations etc. Remember, what looks awful in a still screenshot is a fleeting glimpse in a 60 FPS animation that is unlikely to catch your attention.

Testing every armour through every frame of every animation (and from every viewing angle) is a mammoth and unrealistic task, made more unlikely with new animations being added after previous armours have been tested/approved etc. Modders won’t do this with their models and they’ll offer new animations that won’t have been tested on all vanilla armours. 

 

[Terco_Viejo]

@NPC99 & @John.M, Thank you for your comments, gentlemen.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

@John.M, ...and I still think yours is infinitely better.

Spoiler

So this is due to a model design problem then? or how is that? 

It’s caused by the torso twisting animation distorting parts of the mesh. The higher poly the mesh the less distortion but the lower battle sizes.

So long as the models are LoD'd properly, polygons won't be an issue unless you literally spawn 1000 soldiers on the same spot right in front of the camera. Even in warband polygons are rarely the framerate bottleneck. Anyway, no matter how many polygons you have, the stretching on a grid-like pattern like lamellar is going to be really obvious. In real life the individual scales don't twist like that, but trying to simulate all the individual solid parts of a suit of armour is next to impossible unless you give each siuit of armour a separate animation skeleton. For Honor kind of does this.

Look at how the grid pattern turns along with the guy's waist and doesn't just shear sideways. Below that is a drawing of what I mean.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Left is bannerlord, Right is reality. The one on the right where the isn't really feasible with a skeletal animation system, and not worth the effort either. However if you want to have a lot of lamellar in your game you should probably make sure the animations and rigs don't create huge amounts of distortion.

It also doesn't help that the animations have a ton of upper body swivelling. In warband, animations are split between upper and lower body with the pelvis belonging to the lower part, so for a character to turn their shoulders they have to turn at the waist/chest, which isn't how real humans move and is responsible for most of the distortion you end up seeing. From what I've seen it's the same in bannerlord.

To be honest this is a problem there isn't an easy solution to and it doesn't bother me, but in most games you would probably avoid depicting this kind of armour at all.

 

[DtheHun]

@John.M, ...and I still think yours is infinitely better.

So this is due to a model design problem then? or how is that? 

It's animation related. BIGGER Kentucky James XXL has depicted it well. More polygon would make the stretching curvy but not lesser. Smooth rigging can't hide the tank turret rotation of the upper body. That's a very M&B specific price of freedom. And it's just a slight turn. Imagine the distortion during backward horse archery. It wouldn't be that obvious with small chainmail texture, but the strong vertical pattern of that section makes it conspicuous.

 

[primethief147]

Figure I might as well Throw my pointless 2 cents in. While I still expect nothing for Dev blog 100 I'd be lying if I sayed I wouldn't be a bit pissed if it didn't have a release date or at the very least (like i wrote a couple of blogs ago) a "this is where were at in development blog".

 

[Ostrogoth Pikeman]

If this distortion cannot be fixed easily due to the very nature of movement in the mount and blade games I would accept it as it is now. Especially if it would require so much work and reduce battle sizes. @John.M and Terco_Viejo thanks for those screenshots. Hopefully, we see higher resolution textures in the blogs to come. Is torso movement the main point of difficulty with textures or is there ways to easily reduce it in the arms and armpit? I haven't seen (or maybe not noticed) the mail distortion being as much of a problem there.

 

[AlexHBK]

I already wrote about it in steam. All that you have shown in this dev blog all this was before and to be honest it all looks like an attempt to stretch the development of the game as long as possible.

Fans are starting to get nervous and think that the project will never come out. Try to speed up the development process or start releasing more meaningful dev blogs otherwise the indignation of fans will not be the limit.

 

[fadohacolu]

I made a post about this a while ago: bigger textures and higher polygon models do not necessarily look good, while the best looking professional stuff is also the best optimised. The gulf between an average modder and an average professional 3d modeller is a lot bigger now than it was in 2010 and there are very few people around on the forums right now who could surpass the current bannerlord assets in quality, despite all my criticisms of the latter. 3d modelling is now more specialised than its ever been. Ever wondered why there are so few overhaul mods for more recent games?

Skyrim Disagrees

I shouldn't even dignify this statement with a response, but... here it goes.

1: Skyrim was released 8 years ago, when BL was only just starting development. As Kentucky James already states, the gap between professional game designers and modders has grown considerably, and to pretend otherwise would be silly.

2: TES have a much, much larger following than M&B, which means more modders for the community.

3: Since Morrowind, TES have been very popular as modding platforms. This is part is aided by the fact that TES since Morrowind have all run on the same engine, more or less, and has kept modders pretty comfortable with newer releases.

4: Even for an older game like Skyrim, we don't really see overhaul/conversion mods the same way we had them in MB and WB, which is what much of the M&B community have come to expect.

5: "Mods will fix it" is exactly how Bethesda got away with buggy, poorly polished games for so long. It's also how they ended up in the fiasco that was Fallout 76. They became complacent and forgot how to make decent games since many layers just saw their games as good modding platforms.

In other words, jog on mate.