Dev Blog 16/11/17

Devoneaux

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So where do axes fit into this? I know they've traditionally been considered cutting weapons but that's only telling half the story, since the power in an axe comes from its weight like a mace. Will axes gain slight bonuses versus armor? Not enough to punch through plate perhaps but enough to gain bonuses versus lighter armor.
 

Ask

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Devoneaux said:
So where do axes fit into this? I know they've traditionally been considered cutting weapons but that's only telling half the story, since the power in an axe comes from its weight like a mace. Will axes gain slight bonuses versus armor? Not enough to punch through plate perhaps but enough to gain bonuses versus lighter armor.
At least in Warband, the damage range of axes (and similarily bardiches and two handed swords) was a lot higher than that of regular swords and smaller cutting arms to compensate for the fact that they still were cutting weapons (and of course, in the case for axes it had the bonus against shields).

IIIRC the strongest one handed axes were in the range of like a bit over 40 cutting damage, one handed swords around 33-34 cutting damage, and then the strongest one handed piercing and blunt weapons also were around 33-34 damage of their types.

I don't recall the exact formula but in general effectiveness the strongest one handed axe was a bit weaker than the strongest piercing and blunt weapon against heavy armor, quite better than one handed swords, and still had the advantage of having more raw damage so against worse armored foes it was much better than blunt and piercing weapons.

So in a way, if the numbers are similar as they were in Warband, axes and weapons of the like do perform better against heavy armor without having an actual bonus, which seems like a pretty elegant model to me.
 

Pigrik

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WBWF&S
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Hello! I've a question from one modmaker from http://commando.com.ua/
Here is the translation of his words into English:
Will have been made an importer to transfer models from the old skeleton to a new one? Skeletons are very similar, and for a professional, creating such importer should not be a serious problem. And It will make it easier to port the mods from Mount & Blade or Warband to Bannerlord.
If something isn't clear for you I give also non-translated text of the question:
Будет ли сделан импортер для моделей со старого скелета на новый?
Скелеты довольно похожи и для профессионала создание такого импортера не длжно быть серьезной проблемой. И он существенно облегчит задачу для создания модов, продолжающихся с ИГ или Варбанда.
 

AmateurHetman

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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It would be nice to see more distinction between a light lance and a heavy lance. I feel like a heavy lance could be specialised for couching, whilst a light lance will be more nimble and accurate for stand/thrusts.
 

578

Banned
WBVCNWWF&SM&B
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http://steamcommunity.com/games/261550/announcements/detail/1457340983216971711


New blog is out.
 

Octaviux

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M&BWBNWWF&SVC
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I've read the ARMA for close to a decade, this is amazing to see this crossover here with M&B.  I hope kick-back isn't too debilitating as I always turn off NPC shield bash and kicking as it's too unfair in hordes of NPCs.
 

Lightzy

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The animated gif shown in the devlog indicates 2 mistakes in the combat system, I think.



1) A horseman astride a horse can't engage his core muscles. Core muscles are engaged by the feet first, which have to be firmly planted.  Core muscles also power 80% if not more of the swing.
Thus there's really no way that he could do 150+dmg (which I assume is 'critical hit' level) unless all of that damage is attributed to the headshot. Get on a horse and try to swing a big two handed staff. Try it.

A small one handed sabre aided by the speed of a horse is one thing, but a two handed weapon requiring core muscles to swing? No way whatsoever.


2) You can't "wind your core muscles" turning your body sideways in order to gather power for a swing and just hold it there. The power is lost immediately. The motion has to be back and immediately forward to have a spring type direction of energy.
Try this too. "wind" your body (like for a table tennis shot) and hold it there for 10 seconds. Now see what kind of power you have in your forward swing. It's all clumsy and weak, trying to get the muscles re-engaged.

The 'winding' motion has to be quickly followed by a swing or the power is lost

 

AmateurHetman

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M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Lightzy said:
The animated gif shown in the devlog indicates 2 mistakes in the combat system, I think.



1) A horseman astride a horse can't engage his core muscles. Core muscles power 80% if not more of a swing.
Thus there's really no way that he could do 147dmg (which I assume is 'critical hit' level). Get on a horse and try to swing a big two handed staff. Try it.
Especially when the horse is nearly immobile in the gif so there's no added momentum. But regardless, the swing itself would be so weak as to barely call it a swing.
A small one handed sabre aided by the speed of a horse is one thing, but a two handed weapon requiring core muscles to swing? No way whatsoever.

2) You can't "wind your core muscles" turning your body sideways in order to gather power for a swing and just hold it there. The power is lost immediately. The motion has to be back and immediately forward to have a spring type direction of energy.
Try this too. "wind" your body (like for a table tennis shot) and hold it there for 10 seconds. Now see what kind of power you have in your forward swing. It's all clumsy and weak, trying to get the muscles re-engaged.

The 'winding' motion has to be quickly followed by a swing or the power is lost
The swing does seem slow, but if the player has high power strike, that damage would be possible.
 

Yaga

Tree expert
Squire
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Lightzy said:
The animated gif shown in the devlog indicates 2 mistakes in the combat system, I think.



1) A horseman astride a horse can't engage his core muscles. Core muscles are engaged by the feet first, which have to be firmly planted.  Core muscles also power 80% if not more of the swing.
Thus there's really no way that he could do 150+dmg (which I assume is 'critical hit' level) unless all of that damage is attributed to the headshot. Get on a horse and try to swing a big two handed staff. Try it.

A small one handed sabre aided by the speed of a horse is one thing, but a two handed weapon requiring core muscles to swing? No way whatsoever.


2) You can't "wind your core muscles" turning your body sideways in order to gather power for a swing and just hold it there. The power is lost immediately. The motion has to be back and immediately forward to have a spring type direction of energy.
Try this too. "wind" your body (like for a table tennis shot) and hold it there for 10 seconds. Now see what kind of power you have in your forward swing. It's all clumsy and weak, trying to get the muscles re-engaged.

The 'winding' motion has to be quickly followed by a swing or the power is lost
+1
 
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Lightzy said:
The animated gif shown in the devlog indicates 2 mistakes in the combat system, I think.



1) A horseman astride a horse can't engage his core muscles. Core muscles are engaged by the feet first, which have to be firmly planted.  Core muscles also power 80% if not more of the swing.
Thus there's really no way that he could do 150+dmg (which I assume is 'critical hit' level) unless all of that damage is attributed to the headshot. Get on a horse and try to swing a big two handed staff. Try it.

A small one handed sabre aided by the speed of a horse is one thing, but a two handed weapon requiring core muscles to swing? No way whatsoever.


2) You can't "wind your core muscles" turning your body sideways in order to gather power for a swing and just hold it there. The power is lost immediately. The motion has to be back and immediately forward to have a spring type direction of energy.
Try this too. "wind" your body (like for a table tennis shot) and hold it there for 10 seconds. Now see what kind of power you have in your forward swing. It's all clumsy and weak, trying to get the muscles re-engaged.

The 'winding' motion has to be quickly followed by a swing or the power is lost
At the moment he swinged his hafted blade, his winding was already finished.
Horse was going onwards therefore -even though small since the horse was slow- it gave him a speed bonus.
I dont see a problem in the gif.
But if there is a problem with this overall yeah it should be urgently fixed.
 

Lightzy

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KhergitLancer80 said:
At the moment he swinged his hafted blade, his winding was already finished.
That's the problem. Of course it's not a real problem because on horseback it's impossible in any case, but in general the problem is that his winding is finished long before the strike.
If your winding finishes long before the strike then your strike will be very weak because that's not how muscles work.

The strike has to happen exactly at the end of the wind for the power to be at an optimum.
I think that beyond being realistic, this will also add a lot to the combat system because it will add more of a timing component to the combat system.
 

lolbash

Master Knight
WBNWVCWF&S
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Lightzy said:
KhergitLancer80 said:
At the moment he swinged his hafted blade, his winding was already finished.
That's the problem. Of course it's not a real problem because on horseback it's impossible in any case, but in general the problem is that his winding is finished long before the strike.
If your winding finishes long before the strike then your strike will be very weak because that's not how muscles work.

The strike has to happen exactly at the end of the wind for the power to be at an optimum.
I think that beyond being realistic, this will also add a lot to the combat system because it will add more of a timing component to the combat system.
Actually yes this is a great idea. This could reduce the damage of feinting and holding so that players are encouraged to spam a little more.
 

AmateurHetman

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About 4 minutes in you can see him swinging a spear two handed on horseback. He isn't even trying to swing it as hard as possible, and the stirrups should give enough platform to engage core muscles enough. won't be as hard a swing as on foot, but not weak either.


Edit-
I thought this was well researched and informative:
 

Innocent Flower

Sergeant
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Wow that's really useful. I've been looking for mounted combat knowledge for a while now. Cheers.


Also, I believe Bannerlord uses higher numbers for damage/health than Warband.
 

AmateurHetman

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Innocent Flower said:
Wow that's really useful. I've been looking for mounted combat knowledge for a while now. Cheers.


Also, I believe Bannerlord uses higher numbers for damage/health than Warband.
No worrires.
I'll definitely research some more. I'm curious about the treatises from Italy etc. which are a good primary source. I hope Taleworlds are interested too.
I'll keep posting any of my findings here, or maybe i'll make a separate thread in the citadel.

Did they mention that damage/health values are greater? that's interesting.