[DESIGN FLAW] No reinforcements in bandit lairs

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Yeah. Aren't we supposed to catch them unawares? How come they're decked out in their full battle gear? I'd say if you were the subject of such a sneak attack, you'd just grab the nearest sword and rush out to see what the ****'s going on. That'd be a solution, actually, as melee based bandit lairs are manageable even on high level.
 
I don't know how strong they are on lvl30 because I don't have lvl30 char yet, so perhaps at lvl30 it needs rebalancing - dunno. However, generally speaking, it's perfectly fine for 1 game area to be of challenging difficulty. What else is challenging in Warband singleplayer? Nothing. Oh, winning in Arena for me because I suck at manual block.

What disturbs me in threads like these is that they don't start with "I suck here, help me to get better", but "It's game's fault."

Ringwraith #5 说:
IMO a well balanced game doesn't need a difficulty slider, and should be challenging, but not outright impossible. And winning or losing should definitely never be a matter of chance.

Since no one made such a game yet, perhaps one day you will invent and code it yourself. Just like that guy from Steam forum who would surely made better game than Warband himself.
 
Yoshi Murasaki 说:
I don't know how strong they are on lvl30 because I don't have lvl30 char yet, so perhaps at lvl30 it needs rebalancing - dunno. However, generally speaking, it's perfectly fine for 1 game area to be of challenging difficulty. What else is challenging in Warband singleplayer? Nothing. Oh, winning in Arena for me because I suck at manual block.

What disturbs me in threads like these is that they don't start with "I suck here, help me to get better", but "It's game's fault."
It's not that it's too hard. It's that it's stupidly hard. It's hard for stupid reasons.

1. Few men and no reinforcements - I find myself outnumbered about 5:1.
2. Backspawn - enemies spawn in places you've already cleared for no apparent reason. If there were more bandits inside the huts or caves, I think you'd go in to clear them out one-by-one. But we can't do that for some reason.
 
I agree that generally the assault is too difficult. It's not that the player is not good enough, but that the assault is much harder than the rest of the game itself. I find myself facing seemingly random bandit spawns, getting hit from which what way that they happen to spawn in. Perhaps if spawning was based on where you are currently (ie no spawning behind you), it might not be such a problem, even when there are rediculous amounts of bandits there.

Being outnumbered is another problem. If you're surrounded by 5 enemies with no place to go, unlike the Vanilla game, I find I can not face more than two opponents at once without being attacked as soon as I raise my sword.
 
Yoshi Murasaki 说:
Ringwraith #5 说:
IMO a well balanced game doesn't need a difficulty slider, and should be challenging, but not outright impossible. And winning or losing should definitely never be a matter of chance.
Since no one made such a game yet, perhaps one day you will invent and code it yourself. Just like that guy from Steam forum who would surely made better game than Warband himself.
Oh come now, there's plenty of games that don't have a difficulty slider and play perfectly well.
 
I have to add my support for this, or, rather, the scaling difficulty which doesn't do what it's supposed to do. Basically, at low levels these are hard, but far from impossible fights, since you only get about two spawns per spawnpoint, meaning you run back and forth through the whole 'level' about twice, killing maybe 20 odd bandits. Which is totally cool with good companions and proper use of tactics.

The problem comes when you're level 20+ - then the hordes of bandits literally becomes an avalanche. 50-60 bandits is NOT fun to kill with just yourself and five other guys, even if those five are high-tiered soldiers. Bandits are also exceedingly well equipped, generally having a ranged/throwing weapon, shield and melee weapon. Their only weakness really is their usually poor armor. Steppe bandits, for instance, are absolutely impossible to kill, with their accurate bows, shields and clubs (man I hate maces and the like - one mistake and you're knocked to the ground and pummelled to death). The only lair I can destroy with some degree of safety is the Mountain Bandit lair, since they all spawn within a single village, which can be monitored from the nearby hillock. This is actually a fairly good fight, one I don't mind. The other areas, however, are murder.

How to fix this? Well. One thing would be to implement what has been suggested already, which is to say limit the respawning and instead make the run a once-through. So if there are 60 bandits, and 5 spawn points, make each of the spawn points crush out 10-12 bandits when approached (they pour out of a house/a cave/etc). These are then killed, and once the last one is dead, that spawn is finished. And so the player moves on. Not only will this make the whole ordeal faster, it also seems a lot more intuitive and, ultimately, a lot less frustrating (nothing is more annoying than running back and forth killing a few at a time, only to be killed by the last bastard after like 20 minutes of fighting).

Another alternative might be to make your skills matter. Say, for instance, 1 more man for every point of Tactics or Leadership? Or, since they're in such a hard-to-get-place, how about one more man for every point in Path Finding (party skill, of course)? Since skills also increase with levels, the progression should be fairly natural (+3 men in the beginning, +5 later, up to +7 in very late game, with extra bonuses of course for personal skill and so on).

Finally, simply make the amount of men taken correspond directly to the amount of enemies. Level 5 with 20 enemies? Sure, five men is enough. Level 25 with 56 enemies? Well, maybe 10-12 men should be enough. I mean, think about it. It's a narrow defile, fine - this is fine if the total amount of bandits is very low. But when we're getting up to armies of half a hundred, I'm really wondering how they're making due with the tiny little entranceway (what with their carts and horses and mules filled with loot!). One'd think it's be enough to slip through a couple of one's own men as well...

Anyway, yeah. While we're complaining: sneaking into town and getting discovered and then surrounded after half a second and losing, annoying isn't it?
 
It's a ridiculous quest when you take it at high level. Even if you aren't getting pincushioned to death by ranged bandits, it takes so ****ing long to run around after them as they respawn again and again and again all over the ****ing map, usually with gigantic slopes in the way. It would make more sense if there was an initial group of sentries spawning around the map, and after that the bandits were only allowed to spawn in small groups inside the cave so you could camp in front of there and kill them as they came out. It'd make a lot more sense considering the hideout ambush context, and it'd be a lot more fun.
 
I don't mind spawning behind because it adds (albeit artificial) element of ambush.

About difficulty, I will wait until my character is high level, and then I will test these hideouts and report what I think about difficulty.
 
I agree that this is a big jump in difficulty to the rest of the game (level 26, top level equipment and armour, only top tier vaegir troops, hardest difficulty settings); previous post here. I tried clearing out the forest bandit camp over and over again, trying various tactics with archers, trying to sneak up using cover, trying to lure them out, just charging like crazy, going with my men, splitting up and trying to deal with multiple spawns at once, using different types of weapons; every time we were simply surrounded by archers firing from all directions at once, respawning behind me after I had cleared it out, and shooting me in the back; eventually I changed all the difficulty settings to easiest, and even then it was quite hard to win. I found the tundra bandits the same; however (hardest settings) clearing out the sea raider landing seemed still quite hard, but possible - was quite fun to deal with all of them in melee, since only one or two archers spawn, and the odd throwing axe didn't seem too much of an issue for my men.

One tactic I heard someone say they used successfully was to equip a big crossbow and lots of bolts, then stay out of range and kill them one by one; I refuse to use that tactic as lame and requiring the use of a weapon I don't normally setup my character for.

Suggestions would still be the same as my linked post; some were mentioned here already anyway.
 
Hm, after reading some arguments, I'm inclined to revise my position. I've always complained (or thought, to myself) the game was very easy at later stages of the game. Once you get masses of top tier-something, you can just roll over pretty much everything. However, in this quest you can't. I didn't know the amount of bandits increased with level. That changes things a bit.

And perhaps that isn't a bad thing. I mean, you are not forced to do this quest. If the lair is just outside your town, and the bandits are killing all the caravans/farmers, you can attack the lair. If your attack fails, the bandit will still go somewhere else, since the lair disappears. So not completing the quest won't determine the fate of your game/kingdom.

So, summary: Isn't game defining, can get rid of it even losing, does provide a challenge at later stages of the game.

*switches sides*
 
I don't think the difficulty is too much, generally. I've been playing for a long time and can pretty well steamroll most of these encounters, but as one poster above said, it's not that it's too hard, it's too hard for stupid reasons. If they could fix the spawning to something more intuitive, perhaps scale the amount of your troops by leadership and tweak from there it would take a lot of frustration out of this quest, and you could still have it be very difficult, especially at later levels, if it's done right.
 
My point isn't that it's too much of a challenge, rather that it is (at later stages, full difficulty) practically impossible as far as I can tell, and the scenario is extremely limited - not allowing the player to try very many different tactics, as opposed to the normal field battles. I could just totally ignore that part of the game, true, but it seems silly to have "challenge" that works only for people playing on the easiest settings, to try something hard, and that the people playing the way it should be played have no chance at all. Besides, it's one very fixed scenario; it might be fun to figure out your personal special method to finish the quest (like holing up with your siege crossbow and 3 packs of bolts) once or twice, but after then it would probably just be a grind, as inevitably the method to win will be something boring.

Just let the player choose their own setting, and then try make most battles about the same difficulty. If people want to play hardcore mode, they can limit themselves to no horse and only 5 footmen at any time, all by themselves...
 
To those saying "it's fine, suck it up noobs" - these are the issues I have with it:

- As Papa said, part of the problem is not that it's hard, but that it's hard for all the wrong reasons. Random spawns magically popping up behind you in places already cleared - that's just so gamey and annoying. Not taking your best men in with you doesn't make much sense. Taking only x number of troops with you, no matter what, doesn't make sense (I quite like the idea of making such things skill-dependent; i.e. higher path-finding, tactics, leadership, whatever = more troops in this sort of scenario).

- The difficulty is out of place. A player can conquer entire nations, storm castles with inferior numbers and win, single-handedly beat down an entire arena full of opponents, win tournaments across the land, defeat kings with half of their nations' fighting forces at their backs... but a simple side-quest proves to be impossible? I'm not saying "ohnoes, something is hard, I must cry about it until it is easy!" I'm saying that difficulty should scale relatively equally across the entire game, OR if there are to be exceptionally difficult feats, that they should be very significant ones, not some random bandit quest. On the hardest settings, everything should be hard - besieging, battling, side quests, everything. On easiest settings, everything should be easier.  Having one random side-quest (that one can totally ignore if they choose) be the hardest single feat in the game... doesn't make sense. And if there were anything that would be nigh impossible to do, it should be more significant events - taking cities or battling the Kings' armies, for instance, as that's the closest to a "boss"/"end-game level" there is. The most important events should also be among the most trying.


Basically, it's out of place, artificially difficult, and gamey, and that's no bueno.
 
I think you're missing the point. They're wily forest outlaws, not fighters. They're underhanded, ill-minded, thieving Robin Hoods who prefer to shoot you when you're not looking, and preferably in the back. Did I say they were wily? Sneaky, even. They pop up all over the place! You'll get hit with an arrow and won't even know where the heck it came from. And they like it that way.

They're not your usual knightly opponent - all bright armor and thundering cavalry and such. They're dirty, sneaky, wily outlaws.  I'm sure they've even got awful yellow teeth. And moustaches with bits of soup in it. The only fight they like is an unfair one. Honor? Nope. Chivalry? No way. Have you seen what they use as helmets? Black hoods! If that isn't just downright dastardly, I don't know what is.

Because of this, the field tactics you're accustomed to - fighting toe-to-toe against brave shiny Nords or Swadians or what-have-you, who you can see, and who come charging at you - well, that doesn't fly in Sherwood Forest, nossir.

Looks like you're going to have to adopt some new tactics to deal with these crafty, dirty, yoemen, sirrah.
 
AoC 说:
Ringwraith #5 说:
4) lower your difficulty settings
Having to fiddle with the difficulty slider is a sign of badly balanced game.

No. Some people just sucks/want relaxed gameplay.

Game should be extremely hard, not everyone should be able to finish it at the hardcore difficulty. Humans are different, that why there is difficulty bar here (even not only one).

Asking for the game where everyone can beat it on the hardcore level is lame. If this quest is too hard for you, choose other quest, cheat or lower difficulty. EoT.

Don't blame the game that difficulty level is not on the same level during entire game. :roll:
Can you say all of that again, but in English please?
 
I know I've already posted, but this problem seems really bad. I have been trying to clear out a tundra bandit hideout with the following setup: level 19, str 12, agi 15, ironflesh 4, power strike 4, power throw 4, shield 4, athletics 5, two handed 179, throwing 145, 45 head armour, 54 body armour, 43 leg armour, two handed sabre, heavy round shield, jarids (picking up thrown ones), 1 huscarl, and the other 4 as vaegir guards or marksmen. This against 42 taiga bandits that all seemed to have at least one and sometimes two stacks of throwing weapons, for something like 150 projectiles total, every one of which can kill in one hit at full difficulty (once I died right at the start from one hit, 70 damage). This means about 25 projectiles thrown at each character, often coming from three different angles at once - though no fault of my own (respawns after I cleared an area out); generally the bandits seemed to be able to throw about one stack before we got into melee range.

I tried playing on my normal hardest difficulty again a few times, and generally only killed about 5 or 10 bandits before dying. I then tried just setting the damage to player and allies settings to easiest, still we were repeatedly getting wiped out early on; I could only win after setting all the AI difficulty and speed to easiest, and even then I lost 2 marksmen; at those settings the melee combat when I got close was laughably easy, and really took all the fun out of playing the mission. The throwing weapons were balanced in multi player by increasing the price, so there are only a few on the battlefield; I think the bandits carry far too many - at the end of the easy mode battle the field looked like a pincushion. In field battles this problem probably doesn't show up because the player's horsemen can get close after only a few of the enemies in front have thrown one, and after that the single dense mob of enemies probably doesn't throw any more.

Could a developer test this quest with a high level character? I'd also like to know if anyone's finished it on the hardest difficulty settings with a level of 20 or so, apart from hiding somewhere unreachable with a bow or crossbow and picking them off one by one; and either the tundra or forest variants - the sea raider type I managed to complete.
 
The only other bandit hideout I've managed to take after lvl 20 other than sea raiders was desert bandits, who are easy due to their lousy armor and the setup of their lair. That little oasis? I park my companions at the second cave and position myself at the third, so we're able to kill anything that comes out of them. From my position I can also snipe the bandits at the third spawn point further in the gully.
 
So far I've managed to clear them out with minimum damage to myself, but I suspect a fair few of the tricks I'm using to do so would technically classify as exploits.
 
Any idea how i was able to solo Sea Raider hideout with Haubergeon, helmet with cap, sword and shield? And my character was only 10-20 days *Old*.
 
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