Dena a bit too strong?

[graycloak]

Okay, this is not just whinging because Dena raiders killed my pathetic band of the first 20 guys I recruited...I piled in on a battle between one of the Angle princes and ~50 Dena raiders. The Angles had over 250 troops, many of them Duguth/Hearthwithu and most of them armored/armed..I only brought a handful. I watched the Danes slaughter the angles over and over...the first round was something like 136 angles down to less than 10 danes! That seems more than a little excessive.

 

[mesor]

By history thats actually pretty accurate.

In that period that majority of native army's were about 10% warriors the rest were just fodder with some gear.

While the danish raiding party's were 100% warriors so they always inflicted huge damage even on superior forces.
Ive taken down a few of them party's now best in your fight would of been take ur men round the flank wait till the dena are scattered fighting then charge in behind ull mob them 1 by 1 and can kill them fast.

But a head on fight is suicidal.

 

[graycloak]

And if the majority of the army had been recruit-level troops, I'd agree...but they weren't. Dena shouldn't really be mowing down housecarl-level troops left and right...a lot of these were guys in decent chain with shields/swords etc...not fodder.

 

[alive.in.wonderland]

Danish warriors were the most powerful ones in europe for a good 1000 years lol

 

[Untitled.]

Well, looking down at Danish war history they really haven't had any spectacular victories since Valdemar Atterdag. It's a wonder they remained a major power in Europe til the Thirty Years War.
Also, the first Viking raids on England started in the 790's, I think and the Viking Age was over by 1066 when Harald Hardrada was defeated in England. I'm not sure about the history before that, but I'm quite sure they won't reach your 1000 years. Also, isn't the Kingdom of Kent Jutish? That'd make the hardy warriors of that faction on par with Denas, wouldn't it?

 

[Idibil]

A Hearthtewuru = 1,5 dena pirates 

 

[Skorne]

 
If the Dena Raiders were actually that strong they wouldn't be a bunch of Raiders... they would be a Kingdom.  I just got Blasted by 29 Dena Raiders against my 168 Top Tier Mercenaries; Mostly Professional and Veteran; with a compliment of 30 Archers, and 25 Cavalry.  We won... but not until after losing over 70 men.  That's just ridiculus... the Dena Raiders are buffed up wayyyy too high... Unrealistically High.  And for each and every one to be wearing... Not just Plate Armour... but Plate Armour that's not even available in the game, it just down right Silly!!!  And after getting knocked out I sat and watched one take on 5 infantry and kill 4 before going down, with so many arrows in him he looked like a pen cushion.  Heck, even before I went down, I nailed one in the back, riding at full speed, and hit him clean with the Beowulf Sword... and I swore I head him laugh as he barely even moved, and continue to attack his Target!!!

Now seriously... a group of men that powerful would have conquered Europe and still be ruling to this day... Not running around robbing villagers and peasants for Chicken Feed (Literally).

Okay... that's my gripe... I have to go back and rebuild my army now, because apparently we're not good enough to take on a handful of bandits.

 

[Mkhedari]

Plate Armor?!  Unless that was added in 1.40, it's definitely not in the game.  Denas usually wear various Mail Coats and, at best, Noble Mail.  I take down Denas easily enough; just get a large infantry force with cavalry support.  The infantry should be tightly packed and not in a formation; this'll allow them to quickly surround and overwhelm the Denas, who like to attack almost single-file rather than in a shieldwall.  The cavalry should immediately flank them, and once your infantry clash with the Denas, they can charge the enemy's rear.  You should also personally get behind the Denas once they hit your infantry and just start hacking away at their backs and heads with an axe.  With these tactics, I usually crush them.

 

[TheMoodyOne]

 
If the Dena Raiders were actually that strong they wouldn't be a bunch of Raiders... they would be a Kingdom. 

funny that since within a few hundred years from the mods period the North of England WAS ruled by the Norse and they still hadn't been totally kicked out by the 1200's (they still controlled a number of the Scottish isles)

I just got Blasted by 29 Dena Raiders against my 168 Top Tier Mercenaries; Mostly Professional and Veteran; with a compliment of 30 Archers, and 25 Cavalry.  We won... but not until after losing over 70 men.  That's just ridiculus... the Dena Raiders are buffed up wayyyy too high... Unrealistically High.  And for each and every one to be wearing... Not just Plate Armour... but Plate Armour that's not even available in the game, it just down right Silly!!!  And after getting knocked out I sat and watched one take on 5 infantry and kill 4 before going down, with so many arrows in him he looked like a pen cushion.  Heck, even before I went down, I nailed one in the back, riding at full speed, and hit him clean with the Beowulf Sword... and I swore I head him laugh as he barely even moved, and continue to attack his Target!!!

Now seriously... a group of men that powerful would have conquered Europe and still be ruling to this day... Not running around robbing villagers and peasants for Chicken Feed (Literally).

Okay... that's my gripe... I have to go back and rebuild my army now, because apparently we're not good enough to take on a handful of bandits.

... did you charge them? I have around 80 troops now - mostly Spearmen (Medium infantry) and while I do take around 10 casualties I can easily take out bands of around 25 Dena - simply put your infantry into a shield wall - then tell them to stand closer twice - this will form a nice tight shield wall.

Dena always charge with no formation and once on your shield wall simply hit them in the flank and sides.

Additionally they are not bandits but RAIDERS - its a key difference - bandits are local which means they do not have to be professional since they could be any old sot who decided to leave his village - the Dena (and Franks) are FOREIGN - they jumped a ship which means they are well equipped and professional soldiers (ships are not cheap)

 

[il Condottieri]

You can beat them as the others said, even if you don´t have cavalry and not outnumber them by far. You only need your horse (i´m supossing everyone has at least a cheap horse, is major objetive on early game).
You order your men to spread out once, so you extend your line. Then charge solo the dena raiders on your horse at full speed passing by (not too close) and praying no fransica or angon will hit your horse on the head. You have to manouver to pass through the middle of their line or may be the first third. All the denas you left behind will continue the attack, and all the others will follow you. So you ride along, being chased by half or 2/3 of their army while the other half charges scattered. You have to use de backspace map, when they reach your line, order your men to charge, and they will surround the denas, taking advantage of hiting from behind. When first wave is dead, you tell your men to fall back and head your horse to them, followed by the other half of the raiders. You can repeat the entire movement or maybe finish with a full attack. I recomend to repeat once more and then freely attack the remaining.
I´ve beated dena raiders this way with no problems, having myself nothing more than med infantry (some times first tier of med inf) in a relation of 40 vs 16 or 30 vs 12 or 25 vs 8, playing on hard mode. Special requisit: force the battle on a plain field.
Regards-

 

[Skorne]

You can beat them as the others said, even if you don´t have cavalry and not outnumber them by far. You only need your horse (i´m supossing everyone has at least a cheap horse, is major objetive on early game).
You order your men to spread out once, so you extend your line. Then charge solo the dena raiders on your horse at full speed passing by (not too close) and praying no fransica or angon will hit your horse on the head. You have to manouver to pass through the middle of their line or may be the first third. All the denas you left behind will continue the attack, and all the others will follow you. So you ride along, being chased by half or 2/3 of their army while the other half charges scattered. You have to use de backspace map, when they reach your line, order your men to charge, and they will surround the denas, taking advantage of hiting from behind. When first wave is dead, you tell your men to fall back and head your horse to them, followed by the other half of the raiders. You can repeat the entire movement or maybe finish with a full attack. I recomend to repeat once more and then freely attack the remaining.
I´ve beated dena raiders this way with no problems, having myself nothing more than med infantry (some times first tier of med inf) in a relation of 40 vs 16 or 30 vs 12 or 25 vs 8, playing on hard mode. Special requisit: force the battle on a plain field.
Regards-

I actually live in Fortriu, and I have no immediate plans to return to that side of the kingdom, but I will try that next time I'm there; Thanx!!!


@TheMoodyOne - I'm not quite that organized, I've only recently began taking 'More' advantage of Troop Orders/Formations (So I'm kind of still learning)... but thanx!!!

And Next Time I promise to serve Cheese with my Whine 

 

[qmax]

Tactics:  Don't forget that with proper use of your troops and with the Dena chasing you around on horseback you can have archers shooting them in the back in the meantime.....  There is no question you need moderately good troops and outnumber them at least 2 or 3 to 1 but you should be able to beat them.  Also, get them strung out so your massed infantry can attack a few at a time.  And don't have your cavalry charge until they are well fragmented.

 

[Mkhedari]

Archers are a bad joke.  Unless you get them to shoot the massed enemy in the back like that, don't even have them in your party.  Most of their shots miss, the vast majority of their hits hit shields, most of those that don't get stopped by armor, and most of those that don't fail to kill.  It's a rare day when archers kill someone.

 

[aragontherin]

Archers are a bad joke.  Unless you get them to shoot the massed enemy in the back like that, don't even have them in your party.  Most of their shots miss, the vast majority of their hits hit shields, most of those that don't get stopped by armor, and most of those that don't fail to kill.  It's a rare day when archers kill someone.

not true i have archers a they keep picking out enemy troops left right and center until the enemy hits the sheid wall then my archers cant hit a single target. there  always nessesary. if it weren't for my archers my kingdom would fall and my kingdom would  never be there in the first place.

 

[Mkhedari]

not true i have archers a they keep picking out enemy troops left right and center until the enemy hits the sheid wall then my archers cant hit a single target. there  always nessesary. if it weren't for my archers my kingdom would fall and my kingdom would  never be there in the first place.

What kinds of enemies are you facing?  Morths?  Any decent infantry unit has a large shield and 2 or 3 Shield skill, which can block arrows that don't even hit it.  It takes dozens of arrows to break a shield like that, so unless you have dozens of Saethyddion, or you're fighting farmers and thieves, I find that hard to believe.

 

[Alfred of Gloucester]

Archers are very usefull.
Like Aragon said they pick off low levels before battle, misses hit shields and break or weaken them (i call this a hit).
They kill horses and fleeing men.
In a siege they thin men on the walls before you send in the infantry.
The most effective/efficient use of companions is as Longbowmen with 2hand axe imo.
I've even done archer only army's with just a small personal heavy Inf gaurd (you have to put them in lots of groups to be effective)

Saethydds FTW 

 

[aragontherin]

not true i have archers a they keep picking out enemy troops left right and center until the enemy hits the sheid wall then my archers cant hit a single target. there  always nessesary. if it weren't for my archers my kingdom would fall and my kingdom would  never be there in the first place.

What kinds of enemies are you facing?  Morths?  Any decent infantry unit has a large shield and 2 or 3 Shield skill, which can block arrows that don't even hit it.  It takes dozens of arrows to break a shield like that, so unless you have dozens of Saethyddion, or you're fighting farmers and thieves, I find that hard to believe.

if you mean saethydds then yes my 1/3 of  my army is made up with these archers. just like Alfred said, they would weaken the shields for those who have large shields and sometimes break them. when those units who still have shields hit my shield wall my infatry would take out  their shields then go for the kill

 

[Hengwulf]

Those Briton longbows are the only archers I use. They aren't that great against heavy infantry. But they outshout all other archers, destroy cav, defend castles etc. etc. So yeah

 

[TheGoldElite]

As a proper welshie I was hoping the Saethydds would be as good as maybe rhodoks sharpies or something, but I can't seem to use them effectively atm so ive phased them out of my army. Having 30archers 60inf, I found archers hardly even made an impact. In fron of my men or behind, they rarely picked off low tier enemies, nevermind mids. Putting them to flank seemed like the best option but it seems that a small number of inf or cav just peel off and engage them so they stop shooting and die in melee.

I'm new to brytenwalda and Im probably doing it wrong but For me it's  much simpler to pile in more INF or  CAV to field battles leaving archers in garrison.

 

[Hengwulf]

Well IMO you need to take advantage of the engines weakness. All enemies will follow the first one they encounter. And as was told, this should be you.
So in the field you make them chase and turn their backs on the main line. And those archers are great in siege defense. Don't expect them to hit a lot in a shieldwall clash face to face.