Demonic Magni can be easier than I thought

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Argeus the Paladin

Grandmaster Knight
Spirited Noldor Spirit Horse: 150000 Denar
Balanced Jatu Honor Lance: 4000 Denar
OHKO a Demonic Magnus/Fallen Revenant: Priceless.

Of course there are many other factors, but this is the way I roll.
 
Yeah, if you get them to run into a couched lance, awesome. Its even better if you have a Sarleon Banner that Ulric drops.

Seriously, though - it seems that other than the massive damage of a couched lance, normal melee attacks (piercing or otherwise) take a LONG time to kill them. Their armor/hp is stupidly high (and I love it). Demons indeed ...
 
Lancing? Bah. Try for the head if possible, but I have one hit killed a Magnus in a head on charge several times with a hand weapon, although I was at damn fast speeds, with higher level characters. But I don't really understand the point of worrying too much about killing in one strike, frankly, you can't usually pull that off on any armoured character. And I don't like lancing in M and B much, its so overpowered. I'm removing the system from TGC, and putting in a different one, so that thrusts will be a much stronger way of attacking with spears from horseback, and instead "lances" will break on impact, in the same way you use Javelins or other thrown weapons.
 
sher said:
Ruby Runed Bow head shot has to work well too.

Is my favourite way of whacking them  :eek:

Still i have to see a companion kill a magnii, i believe the pointy-eared one did once,
but i have to bring them down usually. Sir Alistair became pretty good with lance, and
Leslie, Boadice and Alyssa carry balanced throwing spears besides good shield ,
lance and 1h good sword. But just the ocassional hit, not a kill.
I expected Boadice to use a rune sword i got somewhere but even un-horsed insists in
fighting face-to-face with the long knightly lance. Weird.

Anyway, also saw magni carry runed sword or bastard foreign saber with heretic shield,
2h foreign saber (keep away from the thing, but easier to arrow his head) and lance.

their horses are slow, comparatively, but i sense a bit faster than the netherworld from snake warriors, maybe just a misjudgment.

Aerid Thongar said:
I'm removing the system from TGC, and putting in a different one, so that thrusts will be a much stronger way of attacking with spears from horseback, and instead "lances" will break on impact, in the same way you use Javelins or other thrown weapons.

thrusts seems to be ok with me, as they are.
Dunno, really, how much movment you can get handling a lance with all your iron weight and over a horse, but i found interesting lances breaking on impact (maybe a good add to tournments), thrust or couched.
thrown weps, being a totally different matter, supposedly Black Iron Spear wont break on impact, huh?
And when couched, the lance gets in the cradle, no recoil, but minimal, supported by
a) horse running
b) man full of metal junk on top (more weight to the impact means more energy on impact)
c) stopper (cradle)

yes, i would say: is a hard hit all the way  :eek:
 
Nocturno said:
thrown weps, being a totally different matter, supposedly Black Iron Spear wont break on impact, huh?

What I mean, is in the way that when a thrown weapon is used up, it is removed from the inventory... Although, I do wonder if it would be possible to make it so that the lance does actually break off on impact, leaving a piece behind in the target, and you carrying a broken lance. Idk, I'm working on Praxilia atm, whose plate armoured outriders use lances, shields, and hand weapons, as well as a couple of the special heavy cavalry units like the Decarius who will frankly be tanks equal to, if not better than, the Heretic Magnii of Pendor. There aren't many of the factions using couchable lances as such, more common will be the style of shorter versions for thrusting from horseback, in the ideal as anti infantry units.
 
Aerid Thongar said:
I'm removing the system from TGC, and putting in a different one, so that thrusts will be a much stronger way of attacking with spears from horseback, and instead "lances" will break on impact, in the same way you use Javelins or other thrown weapons.

IMO, no change needs to be made to the damage output of polearms due to thrusting while mounted. Remember, though the horse contributes speed, it does not add anything else to the severity of the thrust. No matter whether your horse runs, gallops or stays still, whenever you thrust, you always use YOUR strength to the hit. And the game has already taken the speed factor into account.

The couch though is a whole different subject. Ever anyone wondered why the damage of a couched lance is astronomically high? It's pretty simple really; it's because, when couching, it's the horse that contributes its strength to the hit, not the rider. All the rider has to do is hold his lance tight and the horse will do the rest. This is also why a lance usually broke into splinters after one or two such hits. It couldn't stand such a tremendous impact. I agree with you on this, it has to be changed and each time a lance couches there should be a chance it breaks proportionately to the damage inflicted. Or maybe sth like what happens to the shields, which they start to break with each hit levied upon them, should be transferred to couched lances also.
 
The problem being, that shields are slightly different in that respect though, as they absorb damage only, and to make it so that the lance would absorb damage gradually like a shield, would end up with scripts that conflict against the idea of a lance as a weapon.  Also, shields don't only have hp remember, they have size, and they have shield strength, which is already a major M and B bug, as we all know. I just think that giving it gradual hp, would eliminate the purpose. Do you know exactly how the speed multiplier works against strength and damage? it would be a great help to know.
 
Serazu said:
Aerid Thongar said:
I'm removing the system from TGC, and putting in a different one, so that thrusts will be a much stronger way of attacking with spears from horseback, and instead "lances" will break on impact, in the same way you use Javelins or other thrown weapons.

IMO, no change needs to be made to the damage output of polearms due to thrusting while mounted. Remember, though the horse contributes speed, it does not add anything else to the severity of the thrust. No matter whether your horse runs, gallops or stays still, whenever you thrust, you always use YOUR strength to the hit. And the game has already taken the speed factor into account.

The couch though is a whole different subject. Ever anyone wondered why the damage of a couched lance is astronomically high? It's pretty simple really; it's because, when couching, it's the horse that contributes its strength to the hit, not the rider. All the rider has to do is hold his lance tight and the horse will do the rest. This is also why a lance usually broke into splinters after one or two such hits. It couldn't stand such a tremendous impact. I agree with you on this, it has to be changed and each time a lance couches there should be a chance it breaks proportionately to the damage inflicted. Or maybe sth like what happens to the shields, which they start to break with each hit levied upon them, should be transferred to couched lances also.

"All the rider has to do is hold his lance tight "
yeah, right ...an iron grip from an iron hand from an iron arm.  :razz:

you put the lance somewhere, under your arm or the cradle, then charge...
however i guess would not be possible to do this without stirrups,
so couched lance would be posible before 8th/9th century (when was commonly used)

An interesting, pictured, article here

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/shock.php

about experiences in couched lance today.
 
@Serazu&Nocturno:
Personally I don´t think most lances shattered on impact because that´s totally against their original design. Tourney lances where supposed to shatter in order to prevent injuries but battle lances definetly not. What I suppose was the far more common was that the lance got stuck up skewering your poor opponents or had to be abandoned for the melee weapon convieniently carried on a string around your wrist or neck.
Great article, there, btw.

For your Boadice not using the 2h sword:

You need to equip the melee weapon which your NPC´s shall use dismounted in the top weapon slot. If you put the lance or polearm there, they´ll use it on foot as well totally ignoring the nice hammer, mace, sword or wonderful wooden cudgel you gave them as close combat killing tool.



 
If the lance didn't shatter on impact, probabilities are that the vibration of the tremendous hit of such a weapon, would totally destroy the hand and shoulder of the wielder.

Let me give you an example: the Japanese, who were the master armorers of their time, whenever created a katana, a sword made of multiple steel layers, they made sure the internal layers of the weapon were always softer than the exterior. Had all the layers been of the same hardness, then not only the weapon would shatter on impact, but the vibrations of the hit would be so severe, that there was a serious possibility that the hand of the wielder would either break or he would suffer a disjointed shoulder. And we 're talking about a hit that uses the wielder's strength. Now imagine a couched lance, which uses the strength of the horse. The vibrations of the hit, if it remained in one piece after hitting, would break several bones into splinters. This is why, the lances were always made of wood. In fact, THEY WERE MEANT to be broken on impact, otherwise, nine out of ten times and always depending on the hit, the hand and shoulder of the wielder would either shatter or, at best, the wielder would suffer a serious shoulder dislocation. 
 
well, sounds like theories to me
reading the article does heaps of good in understanding shock-lance-horse thing

:grin:

Edited: i just guess lances were made of wood because its cost,
and the weight.

And yes, tourny lances intended to break, i meant that, not battle lances.
Anyway, it seems couched lances in battle were mostly to sweep infantry, and a standing human body
has little resistance to a charging horse full of junk and its owner on the back (for energy matters, you know),
which all this energy is focused in the tip of the lance.
Meaning you are not charging against a concrete wall.
and besides that tourny lances often found to have hollow parts in it, making them one-time use.
 
Not to mention the intimidation factor - picture the lighter-armed infantry's reaction to a line of knights charging towards them with couched lances!  It would take very brave and well-trained troops to hold the line and not turn tail and run precipitously at the sight of them.

That was a very interesting article, Nocturno, thanks for posting the link.  The bit about stirrups not being the important factor for the knight's staying on at impact point, but instead, the height of the cantle on the saddle was informative, too.
 
even in the case that a lance didnt shatter on impact there would be no way it could be used again. As you see, the head of the lance seems to be impaled in an unfortunate foe which means that you have to drop it, or use your godly powers and hoist up the enemy and tug him off the pole while riding at a gallop.

The lance however could easily be retrieved from the unfortunate schmup with a hole in his chest
 
How can you possibly think a lance wouldn't break on impact? this is a wooden pole, with or without a steel tip on the end, travelling in the arm of a man on horseback, probably travelling at least 40-50mph. Regardless of the man carrying it, without taking into account the strain factor on his shoulder and arm, this is the tip of a pole colliding with a person. Lets say they are only wearing cloth, for the sake of argument. The human body, is fairly resistant. It is not just soft tissue, it has bone and muscle. the deeper the lance travels into the body, the more strain is instantly put on the length of the lance.  Now aiming downwards, at an infantry unit, this puts the flex about 3/4 of the way along the length of the lance, 1/4 of the way from the tip, approximately. The sheer force would drive it through the man on the recieving end, however, you are still travelling. This is instantly a weight, on the end of a big long pole, that you are holding, and moving closer to. If lances were not designed to break on impact, can you visualise what would happen? The rider has no possible way to shift the dead weight on the end of the lance now, which is getting nearer to him, even if he did have the time to think about doing so, which he doesn't. As he continues moving forwards, that lance tip is still travelling, and now held in the same spot on the ground, whilst the rider is getting closer. This would obviously increase the angle of the lance in the rider's hand, until he is so close to the body, that whether or not the lance tip is through the man and also buried in the ground, or is just buried in the body, it would cause a variety of possible horrific accidents to the rider, either he will be hoisted from the saddle by his lance arm, because he is still moving, and the lance is now stationary, or his shoulder will be ripped from its socket, unless he releases his grip. Lances are not a weapon that is reusable, regardless of the ability to collect a dropped lance and use it again, it is single shot, unless it is used to pierce more than one enemy at a time. even that would be suicide, who wants to charge a deep rank of infantry and make a kebab out of four or five of them, then realise that one is surrounded by soldiers and cannot back his horse up, much to his dismay. Therefore, to save the rider suffering a nasty injury from the forces involved in such an attack, the lance would be primed to break, at that important point, the stress point, 3/4 of the way up. "battle lances" yes, but it depends upon the tactical usage. If it is a line charge by horsemen, its probably the most lethal possible attack cavalry could inflict against tightly massed infantry. if it is a single horseman, which in M and B 90% of the time it is, because they are useless at riding in formation, then no. Lance breakage would be a positive thing. The other thing being, TGC is not about knights in armour fighting with lances. It has more greek and roman influences in the general factions I am using, as well as Fantasy ones.
 
I know this is getting off topic, but I want to thank those contributing to this discussion, especially about the lance and its use. I vaguely remembered accounts of Cortez' and Pizzaro's (late medieval) armies in their conquests in the New World, where a very small number of cavalrymen caused havoc, mostly with their lances, which they used over and over. This lead a discovery (new to me anyway) of the different styles of lancing...a la brida (essentially European) and a la jineta (Moorish derived, used by the Spanish). A fascinating discussion of the evolution of these styles is contained here http://books.google.com/books?id=IaN-YaOMhX4C&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=cortez+lancers+mexico&source=bl&ots=JweWna3Nn7&sig=-XvVxD84syheqd2jWd_Q0PjT_h0&hl=en&ei=f3PtTKCzPI_2tgPlz_mjBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q&f=false and I found it interesting enough to order a copy of the book it's from "Conquerors:The Roots of New World Horsemanship", a goldmine of information on the evolution of cavalry and mounted combat. http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=0965853306 . Another article about Spanish cavalry, in Italy.http://www.xenophongroup.com/EMW/article001.htm

Anyway, hugely off topic, but thanks to all for some interesting information.
 
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