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Delayed attack and Animation bug

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Krisee

Regular
Short backstory.

After the patch of 12 November Chao and some others noticed that combat was different. Chao and I chatted about this, and then decided to explore and make a video showcasing these problems.

Our understanding.
I will list first what we know:
* I am writing down timestamps to the video.
  • "Perfect blocks" can cause the worst animation bug to occur. 0:32 (0:36 is easier to see)
  • Spear has significant delay.
    • After spear gets blocked, there is a significant delay on both the blocker and attacker.
      • This is easiest to test out yourself. After your spear attack gets blocked attack again and wait to see. (Spear will return to its natural resting animation before attacking. Although this is my own observation this might be incorrect.)
  • Switching from a weapon to spear allows you to perform a bugged animation attack. 3:29
  • Bugged animation has a significant delay that can be slower than a double hit from an opponent. 1:45
  • After blocking, using swing -> cancel attack shows a bugged animation.5:16
    • The animation should be normal, before this patch this was executable and it looked normal.5:01
Some other problems:
  • There is some added delay about 0.2-0.5 seconds long.
  • Strange hitboxes.
    • strange hitboxes (we don't know exactly is it related to each other with delayed attack and animation bug, so the main aim is to fix animation bug and delayed attack, and perhaps strange hitboxes will be fixed itself)
  • Delay and animation bugs are always the case, the video shows the most obvious moments.
    • To show this, we did attacks at a certain angle, with a certain weapon and with a certain block timing, but this does not mean that the delay and animation bugs are only in these cases, they are always, they just appear not so brightly and it is harder to show them. Bugs happen when i'm taking damage and during MY attacks too
Speculation?
  • "I think due to the fact that they added some kind of "stun" to all weapons. Because you can see the difference between the holding block animation(i hold RMB) and the "perfect block" animation(i click RMB once), in "perfect block" the sword is slightly tilted back as if it was hit with something very heavy and it's "stunned" (2:35). I mean my idea is that "perfect block" is easier to stun."
  • To avoid bug animation you have to wait on your attack for about 0.2-0.5 seconds, else bug animation always takes place.
    • "Delay and animation bugs are always the case (except moments like in the video "normal animation" when u do your attack after like 0.2-0.5 sec "window attack")"
    • So essentially: Bug animation will take place if you attack immediately after you blocked an attack. Only with "perfect blocks" it because obvious.

Definitions:
  • Perfect Block:
    • A block done at the last moment. Done by just pressing RMB once.
  • Normal Block:
    • A block in which you just hold RMB until an attack lands on your block.
  • Attack:
    • A full range motion attack of a weapon (no longer able to be cancelled). Doesn't matter if it hit, missed or was blocked.
  • Swing:
    • A cancelled attacked, press RMB to cancel an "attack " making it a "swing".
  • Delay: (For this post)
    • Extra time it takes for an "attack" to happen, extra in the sense of it being out of the norm. It takes longer than what it should be; therefore the name 'delay'.

 
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Danny5

Sergeant at Arms
I think some of these are intentional like the stun for example, cause the game mechanics is trying to be realistic
 

Krisee

Regular
I think some of these are intentional like the stun for example, cause the game mechanics is trying to be realistic
Realism should give way for good game design.
But I don't think this was intentional, since in the patch of 12 November there was nothing mentioned about these combat changes.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Just went and tried and couldn't recreate any spear delay on block (sadly - this would be good!) You may be referring to the attack reset delay which is prevalent on all attacks and feels p bad?
 

Krisee

Regular
Just went and tried and couldn't recreate any spear delay on block (sadly - this would be good!) You may be referring to the attack reset delay which is prevalent on all attacks and feels p bad?
Maybe I worded it badly in the post.
What i meant was this:
When you attack with spear and someone blocks it, press LMB immediatly. And you notice the delay.
But also if you block a spear there is also some delay.

"To avoid bug animation you have to wait on your attack for about 0.2-0.5 seconds, else bug animation always takes place. "Delay and animation bugs are always the case (except moments like in the video "normal animation" when u do your attack after like 0.2-0.5 sec "window attack")"
 

Chao Persik

Recruit
I think some of these are intentional like the stun for example, cause the game mechanics is trying to be realistic
It's not our business to advertise the game and tell the devs its mechanics. We're talking about the bugs that were caused by these changes. "Stuns" or whatever it may be, added to the game on dec 12 patch, must not break the hit animation or mess my display. It was totally okay before when you added 2h stuns - I could clearly see that I physically cannot hit - there were not any lags or display bugs. We're talking about a bug here, which you have to fix since it causes troubles for 1k players. People think they have connection or packet loss issues. This has to be fix asap
 

Olaf The Cruel

Sergeant
And I thought I was messing up with counter blows. I have exactly same issues, feels so off and wrong. **** realism, it makes the mechanics feel bad and they should change it back again
 

Horked

Veteran
WBNWVC
These strange delays have been here for long time, not sure for how long, but Ive noticed them playing various classes, not sure if its the perk selections or the class itself, often using shield.TBH I ignore this because I assume its some known alpha issue.
 

Krisee

Regular
These strange delays have been here for long time, not sure for how long, but Ive noticed them playing various classes, not sure if its the perk selections or the class itself, often using shield.TBH I ignore this because I assume its some known alpha issue.
Do you have something to back up that it has been happening before? Since we think it is a new development with the 12 of November patch.
 

Chao Persik

Recruit
These strange delays have been here for long time, not sure for how long, but Ive noticed them playing various classes, not sure if its the perk selections or the class itself, often using shield.TBH I ignore this because I assume its some known alpha issue.
What is your ping?
 

Horked

Veteran
WBNWVC
Its maybe not a delay as such but just times when me clicking mouse doesnt compute, nothing happens, first I thought it was my mouse, its more often now since latest patch, usually when crowd fighting and lots of stuff is going on, its like server doesnt get my input. I have 1gb internet and have about 20ms latency on the EU servers
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
Hey!
Thank you for the thread and research. I'll go a bit into detail about what's going on and about 2 things that will change about this in the future.

About blocking
First of all let's lay down what a perfect block is, it's a last second block, that reduces the stun you get and increases your opponent's stun slightly, but by nature is obviously a bit more risky to perform. Additionally there are also heavy attacks, from your opponent, which are attacks that were held and not released instantly on their ready, those attacks deal more damage and stun.

But back to the topic. For a perfect block to work, your weapon needs to be exactly at or just about to reach the physical blocking location, so the end of the blocking animation (keep that in mind).
With our new logical blocking system, that was introduced a while back, we reduced the block delay. In practice this means, even if your weapon is not at the physical blocking location yet, the logical system might decide that your block was successful. So being able to block might not necessarily mean that your weapon has to be exactly physically in the position to do so.

Now you might notice that those systems collide here. Before we introduced the system, the earliest you could block was a “perfect block” and after that time window, everything would be a normal block. Now with the logical blocking system, we extended the period you are able to block, so you can block earlier. But those blocks don't count as perfect blocks, even though visually and timing wise they look very similar.

Obviously, just like your video shows, this leads to some confusion, since practically your input is the same, but by the fraction of a second, you sometimes perform those “early blocks” instead of “perfect blocks” resulting in an extended stun period.

We will work on a way to resolve this. Probably we will just count all early blocks as perfect blocks in the future, and “teleport” the defenders weapon to the physical perfect block position.

About spears
So with spears we have 2 bugs currently that are causing these weird behaviours. Both bugs are purely visual.
  1. The first one is a very old one, that we will hopefully get around fixing soon. It's actually not spear related, but about thrust attacks (but obviously this affects spears more than other weapons). After a successful thrust, usually you will get an attacker stun, where you are not able to ready your weapon instantly again, but are free to block, we are all used to it by now. Sadly atm we allow players to go into an attack ready early than they are supposed to. But since the stun is still active, we don't allow them to attack. This makes it seem like you are stuck in your ready animation and throws off your timings. Thanks for @Aprikosenmann for reporting it, check this gif that visualizes it.
  2. The second thing is that, after you switch from a weapon to your spear and instantly attack, you end up with this sped up attack animation like shown in your video. It seems like it's playing a wrong animation there which is causing this problem, we are looking into fixing it.

I am pretty sure this covers all the problems brought up. Thanks for the reports again!
 

Horked

Veteran
WBNWVC
After a successful thrust, usually you will get an attacker stun, where you are not able to ready your weapon instantly again, but are free to block, we are all used to it by now. Sadly atm we allow players to go into an attack ready early than they are supposed to. But since the stun is still active, we don't allow them to attack. This makes it seem like you are stuck in your ready animation and throws off your timings.
Ahh! Thanks a bunch! I hope you will get around to fix it soon, next patch? :grin: It shouldnt be a thing that reoccur once its fixed, better fix it sooner than later IMO. Nice to read in depth dev posts like this, thanks :smile:
 
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