Deflecting Arrows (and other perks)

[Scarf Ace]

This became a talking point in an other thread, to the point that I think it warrants its own thread.

There's a 2 handed perk in the gamescom demo that gives you a chance to deflect incoming projectiles.
I have no problem with this in principle, I don't think anyone does. Deflecting an arrow with a sword is physically possible, and there are even historical fencing manuals that deal with incoming missiles, although it's mostly about people tossing their sword at you (lol)
The problem I (and others) have with this perk is that it appears to be based entirely on random chance. In my eyes this goes against the nature of the combat system. It should be 100% based on the player's own timing, either using a well timed block, or maybe even a cut?. I think requiring good timing is absolutely crucial to make the mechanic good. Perfectly hitting the projectile with your weapon is probably too hard with the amount of precision the game grants you, so some leeway would make sense there.

I think "X% chance to do Y" mechanics in general don't suit Mount & Blade (outside of accuracy penalties for ranged weapons of course), and I hope Taleworlds reconsiders the design of this feature and any similar ones we may not have seen yet. I'd rather not have deflecting arrows at all over having something completely luck-based.

 

[lolbash]

I already made a post on the other thread explaining how to make it skill based. I will quote it here

I have a problem with the deflecting arrows mechanic.

I do not have a problem with the idea itself, but the random chance aspect sits wrong with me, and the idea that it is locked behind a perk.

So I have an idea on how to make it skill based.

The animation during the transition to block would be a great time to deflect an arrow.

For example, I am holding left block. Then I switch to right block.

In the small amount of time that my player switches between blocks is the time in which the arrow can be deflected.

It cannot be anything else, as that would be making it overpowered.



Examples of how I think it should be:

Top block(block overhead swings)->transition animation( deflect arrow )->bottom block(block stabs from spears and swords)

Neutral stance (when player is doing nothing and is vunerable to all attacks ->transition animation (deflect arrow property) -> right block (protect from swings from opponent left)

Holding bottom attack to stab opponent -> transition animation to block (Do not add deflect property here) -> top block.

Also make sure that the deflect can only block 1 arrow at a time as to not make Archers useless against two handers.

In addition, the player must recieve feedback for deflecting the arrow, so when the arrow is deflected the player can do a brief diagonal sword stance, like this

Accompanied with a satisfying sword cling sound.




Please remove the perk limitation, and make it a hidden feature that is standard with all 2 handed weapons like Chambering in Warband

 

[Bjorn The Dead]

I want both actually. I want it to be the last perk and player skill. Being the last perk immerse you in that you master the way of the sword(Ofcourse, it just might depend on your excessive usage of two handed sword). I will not talk about wanting it to be player skill since it is obvious, this is a MB game.

After doing everything right, it should still depend on chance since we are talking about war bows here whose draw weight can be 100-120 pound.

 

[bladeex]

I want both actually. I want it to be the last perk and player skill. Being the last perk immerse you in that you master the way of the sword(Ofcourse, it just might depend on your excessive usage of two handed sword). I will not talk about wanting it to be player skill since it is obvious, this is a MB game.

After doing everything right, it should still depend on chance since we are talking about war bows here whose draw weight can be 100-120 pound.

This.

 

[Hirano]

I want both actually. I want it to be the last perk and player skill. Being the last perk immerse you in that you master the way of the sword(Ofcourse, it just might depend on your excessive usage of two handed sword). I will not talk about wanting it to be player skill since it is obvious, this is a MB game.

After doing everything right, it should still depend on chance since we are talking about war bows here whose draw weight can be 100-120 pound.

tbh I think the perk that lets us use any bow on horseback is more of a problem than the one that deflects arrows, I don't really play multiplayer, so correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't like the idea of war bow and siege-crossbow horse archers since now we also have perks that make reload them faster

 

[Lord Engineer (Castor)]

Deflecting an arrow in real life with a two handed weapon should be very difficult, though as previously stated not impossible. So while this is a game and not real life I think any chance of a player deflecting an arrow will be minute, so if a player develops enough skill with their timing and precision then I think they should be rewarded for such efforts. I also think that attacking to deflecting an arrow would be better than blocking it as it would be a more active deflecting.

However on the other side of the argument, if there wasn't a perk for deflecting arrows and it was just an unofficial skill like chambering then I would think that archers in multiplayer would suffer. To what degree?: I can't say.

It should not be forgotten that the perk is very high up on the two handed skill list, so the implication of a achieving that high a skill level is that your character is proficient with their weapon and presumably would have an easier time of said feat than someone with a low skill level. So here is what I propose, you keep the perk in the game but implement arrow deflecting as a hard-as-nails unofficial skill, think something like chambering but much, more harder, and what the perk does instead is increase the available window for deflecting arrows (through a larger hitbox, more leniency with timing, etc.).

So for a definitive statement: in my opinion there should always be deflecting arrows in the game (through attacking instead of blocking), it should just be really, really hard, and the perk should just make it easier for the player.

I want both actually. I want it to be the last perk and player skill. Being the last perk immerse you in that you master the way of the sword(Ofcourse, it just might depend on your excessive usage of two handed sword). I will not talk about wanting it to be player skill since it is obvious, this is a MB game.

After doing everything right, it should still depend on chance since we are talking about war bows here whose draw weight can be 100-120 pound.

tbh I think the perk that lets us use any bow on horseback is more of a problem than the one that deflects arrows, I don't really play multiplayer, so correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't like the idea of war bow and siege-crossbow horse archers since now we also have perks that make reload them faster

About multiplayer: they could just not enable loadouts with any perk that could be potentially game breaking, such as siege crossbows on horseback, so I don't really see that as an issue. To be honest perks complicate multiplayer so I not really sure how Taleworlds plan to handle them, not that I'm massively involved I'm primarily play singleplayer.

Edit: Forgot something really important, added now: attacking instead of blocking to deflect arrows, just makes more sense to me.

 

[Silen]

Although I do not mind the current system, I would rather have it based on skill just like the rest of the combat system. I think this could be a very powerful tool in the hands of a skilled player who has trained this technique for a long time, a bit like the kickers in Warband who manage to land a kick every time even on those who are very much trained to avoid them. I can see though how this could turn to be a problem for those who don't care about combat and play the singleplayer to relax, or whatever else, I'm talking about those who use autoblock and such. Perhaps it could be an option for them just as manual and autoblock.


I like your idea Rainbow, I think it could work well, however personally I'd rather have it done with attacks rather than block transitions, mainly for 2 reasons: I believe it would look more natural (as in, pushing an arrow aside) and it would give a player the chance to also attack an opponent at the same time. Now, it can be argued that this might be too overpowered, but allow me to explain why I think it wouldn't.

If the system were based on attacks, you would be able to only deflect arrows effectively with swings (I don't see how it could be done with an overhead or a stab anyway) and although these two attacks can be angled, both directioning them properly and launching them would take more time than blocks. On top of this, while deflecting arrows for a skilled player who has trained this for hours and hours might not be a problem when facing, say, an archer by themselves (whether you decide to deflect an archer's arrows or dodge them like in Warband, it's quite easy against a ranged alone), the real issue would be doing it while in a fight.

You would need impeccable timing and very good awareness to consider what your closest opponent is doing, where the ranged player is, and at exactly what time they're about to release the arrow/bolt. You would need to angle yourself properly in order to be able to hit the incoming missile, and at the same time try to get a chance to launch an attack without being open for the closest enemy to stop you.

This might make things a bit more complicated than blocks, however with this system the players capable of efficiently deflecting arrows with good frequency will not be many, and you won't see every server turning into a master jedi class (thanks Crow for the joke). Although, Rainbow's system would be fine by me as well.

 

[lolbash]

however personally I'd rather have it done with attacks rather than block transitions, mainly for 2 reasons: I believe it would look more natural (as in, pushing an arrow aside) and it would give a player the chance to also attack an opponent at the same time.

Actually there is a reason why I choose block transitions instead of attacks.

The attacks are very long. If you put deflect on the attack animation then players can just spam left click and become unshootable against an Archer. With block transitions you must move your mouse in addition to right click, which reduces the window for deflect. This will give the Archer the ability to do "mind games" against the two hander. Like for example, delaying his shots, which can force the two handed user to change blocks too quickly and get shot.

There is also a problem with adding deflect on attacks. In my proposed system the intent was that the player must focus on his timing to deflect arrows. This means that if the two handed player is preoccupied with another fighter he will not have time to look at the background to watch for arrows. This will give archers usefulness back as they can still help their team kill someone who has mastered the ability to deflect arrows, with the help of a teammate of course.

 

[Silen]

Hmm, I'm not sure, I think the attacks would actually be less spammable since a full swing takes longer to complete, and your timing must be impeccable since you would only be able to deflect the arrow when the blade came in contact with it during the attack. As in, if you release the attack just a moment too early, the blade won't catch it, and the same will happen if you release it just a moment too late.

I might be missing something here though, it would be far easier if we could experiment in practice and see what works best. Either way, I like both systems, as long as there is that skill factor which I would thoroughly appreciate.

 

[DAWUSS]

It should be skill based, requiring a whole lot of non-quantifiable luck (ie, not stat based luck) to do so. If you're going to deflect with a sword, it should be because the arrow physically hit the sword and not because the game happens to say the sword deflected the arrow.

Deflecting arrows Jedi-style is something that should be near impossible to do.

 

[lolbash]

It should be skill based

If you're going to deflect with a sword, it should be because the arrow physically hit the sword and not because the game happens to say the sword deflected the arrow.

You can only choose one of the two.

 

[stevehoos]

Might as well add magic throwing beans and trolls. 

 

[Ki-Ok Khan]

Might as well add magic throwing beans and trolls. 

yeah, it only makes sense, amirite..

 

[Silen]

Might as well add magic throwing beans and trolls. 

That's one hell of an exaggeration.

 

[Dethikus]

It should be skill based

If you're going to deflect with a sword, it should be because the arrow physically hit the sword and not because the game happens to say the sword deflected the arrow.

You can only choose one of the two.

Hes saying it should be player skill, not random chance.

Also, isn't vulnerability to missile troops the trade off for having that extra damage/edge in melee as a twohander? Two handers already get the cleave which was supposed to be their buff?

 

[Silen]

Wouldn't really say they have an extra edge. It's just a different playstyle. When using a two handed sword, you must be skilled in blocking, and it's incredibly harder against multiple opponents than it is with a shield. A single archer can easily stop someone using a two handed weapon from even progressing through a melee fight.

Also one thing to keep in mind is that this wouldn't make them INVULNERABLE to ranged units. It would simply give them a chance, provided one is trained and skilled, to deflect a shot. Most likely it would be a rare occurrence more than anything.

 

[lolbash]

Hes saying it should be player skill, not random chance.

And I am saying that you cannot have skill based competitive ombat and physics based combat together at the same time.

Besides, scroll up and read my solution, I think I have found the perfect solution to skill based arrow deflection, but I am not an all knowing deity and I am looking for criticism on my solution.

 

[stevehoos]

Trained and skilled to "block an arrow?" Can we purchase Gandalf's staff or buy Lothlórien armor? Can we siege the Woodland Realm?

 

[Ki-Ok Khan]

Trained and skilled to "block an arrow?" Can we purchase Gandalf's staff or buy Lothlórien armor? Can we siege the Woodland Realm?

Omg you are so funny 

 

[Silen]

Trained and skilled to "block an arrow?" Can we purchase Gandalf's staff or buy Lothlórien armor? Can we siege the Woodland Realm?

I wasn't implying that a person in real life would be "trained and skilled" in deflecting arrows, I was referring to the game, and a game mechanic. Also, feel free to install one of the many LOTR mods that will come out if that pleases you.