Deflecting Arrows (and other perks)

[Gabriel_Gonzaga]

Those are base damage numbers. Power Strike skill and increased rotational speed for weapon's length make all the work done.

Talking multiplayer here, where the skill is the same. As for the reach advantage, you won't be able to use it if there's any competent ranged player on the enemy team, you'll die very quickly.

I was talking about this:

A Rhodok military cleaver (one handed) deals 35 swing damage, whereas the great sword deals 42 swing damage and a normal two handed sword deals 40. That's  not that much more at all.

So I think damage difference is still considerable.
Actually, skills are different in multiplayer. For example, you can look through this wiki: http://mountandblade.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Multiplayer_classes
Nord Huscarl have 5 Power Strike, Khergit Infantry 3, and every other infantry 4. Each point of PS gives 8% addition to the damage. So, if we will use Huscarls PS, 40% addition. Then military cleaver is 49 and two-handed sword 56. We have 7. Not very good enough? It can be meaningful in case how much hits the opponent will sustain, 2 or 3. Plus there are different speed calculations, I don't know the math behind them. Two-handed users move faster than shielders, so at least they have better propulsion.
But I will agree about ranged users obliterating them. And heavy armor in Warband only give archers more time to stuff a two-handed user with arrows.

One thing I noticed on videos from Gamescom that sometimes, usually in tournaments, some high-tier infantry were sprinting like devils. Anybody else have seen that? Was it some special Sprint mechanic or they just have tons of points in Athletics?

And one more - how does this deflecting mechanic is going to be implemented for two-handed axes? Deflecting with shafts sounds like actual fantasy.

 

[TheSlowKnightofNi]

They’ve brought this feature in because of the hate archers get in multiplayer. So they feel they must bring in something to address it. Shame really because archers can’t really be nerfed in anyway without hindering gameplay. This is coming from a person who very rarely plays archer.

In reality there is no other way to implement this perk than a random chance to block. If it becomes a skill based chamber/block and certain players are able to master it then the game would be ridiculous.

The idea that a one on one, face to face confrontation between an archer and a melee player could result in the melee player blocking every single arrow, even if it is skill based, is simply stupid and straying into fantasy - you would need superhuman reflexes and sight. Mount and Blade is not based in fantasy. If we really really must have this nerf to archers then Taleworlds have done it the right way imo.

TL;DR It should be based more so on luck rather than skill because I’m pretty sure that’s how it would be in a real life setting. We don’t need superhuman cyborg ninja players able to block all front facing incoming arrows.

 

[ArnulfFloyd]

Taleworlds want to nerfing archers but in a stupid and fantasy way, they can do as larger RPG audience to be stick with Bannerlord

 

[Silen]

So I think damage difference is still considerable.
Actually, skills are different in multiplayer. For example, you can look through this wiki: http://mountandblade.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Multiplayer_classes
Nord Huscarl have 5 Power Strike, Khergit Infantry 3, and every other infantry 4. Each point of PS gives 8% addition to the damage. So, if we will use Huscarls PS, 40% addition. Then military cleaver is 49 and two-handed sword 56. We have 7. Not very good enough? It can be meaningful in case how much hits the opponent will sustain, 2 or 3. Plus there are different speed calculations, I don't know the math behind them. Two-handed users move faster than shielders, so at least they have better propulsion.
But I will agree about ranged users obliterating them. And heavy armor in Warband only give archers more time to stuff a two-handed user with arrows.

One thing I noticed on videos from Gamescom that sometimes, usually in tournaments, some high-tier infantry were sprinting like devils. Anybody else have seen that? Was it some special Sprint mechanic or they just have tons of points in Athletics?

And one more - how does this deflecting mechanic is going to be implemented for two-handed axes? Deflecting with shafts sounds like actual fantasy.

I didn't mean to say that power strike skill is the same for every class and faction, I thought you were referring to singleplayer.

You're right, I didn't consider the skill values and the damage difference is more considerable than I thought, seeing also how the swadian infantry class in multiplayer has slightly more two handed weapons proficiency than one handed. That notwithstanding I still don't think that one or two less hits is a massive advantage, since it's far easier to die with a two handed weapon than it is to get to use it in any battle server, without also considering the disadvantage when being outnumbered compared to a shielder. As for heavy armor in Warband, that's pretty much how it is, if you get to snowball to good armor in the first place you can perhaps tank a few more arrows but they'll get you regardless.

I didn't notice the sprint you mention, but it does sound quite interesting. It would be great if you could point out a video and a minute mark.

As for axes deflecting, I'm not sure why it would be any different than a sword, after all it's merely about pushing the arrow aside, whether you do it with a sharp blade or a wooden shaft.

They’ve brought this feature in because of the hate archers get in multiplayer.

We don't know anything about this perk being in multiplayer in any form so far. We'll have to see.

 

[TheSlowKnightofNi]

We don't know anything about this perk being in multiplayer in any form so far. We'll have to see.

Principle applies to single player. Troops deflecting arrows left right and centre doesn’t sit right.

Edit: in fact I as a single player wouldn’t want to be able deflect all arrows coming at me. It does not make sense for the M&B universe. Random chance to block is the best option available I believe.

 

[Silen]

We don't know anything about this perk being in multiplayer in any form so far. We'll have to see.

Principle applies to single player. Troops deflecting arrows left right and centre doesn’t sit right.

I doubt troops will be able to use the perk.

 

[TheSlowKnightofNi]

We don't know anything about this perk being in multiplayer in any form so far. We'll have to see.

Principle applies to single player. Troops deflecting arrows left right and centre doesn’t sit right.

I doubt troops will be able to use the perk.

Making the player character OP? That’s a bad design choice imo.

 

[Silen]

Making the player character OP? That’s a bad design choice imo.

We don't know yet how exactly the perk will work, nor (as far as I remember) what's the chance of actually deflecting an arrow. I don't think we're able to determine whether it's op or not at the moment.

 

[TheSlowKnightofNi]

Making the player character OP? That’s a bad design choice imo.

We don't know yet how exactly the perk will work, nor (as far as I remember) what's the chance of actually deflecting an arrow. I don't think we're able to determine whether it's op or not at the moment.

We have very little information you are correct. I was responding to your theory about troops not being able to block arrows whilst the player can. That theory would indeed make the player OP even if only by a small amount.

 

[Gabriel_Gonzaga]

I didn't notice the sprint you mention, but it does sound quite interesting. It would be great if you could point out a video and a minute mark.

Uh, I feel I was deluded. Looks like they just move considerably faster in comparison with Warband, that's it. Plus all those sand clouds on each step, they make me feel like guys are Flashes. 26:19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=822&v=TNhs-XKKD-s - look at the guys on the background, illusion of fast-paced movement is very clear.

 

[Silen]

We have very little information you are correct. I was responding to your theory about troops not being able to block arrows whilst the player can. That theory would indeed make the player OP even if only by a small amount.

If by that you mean the player being more powerful than regular troops, that's for sure, but I think that would always be the case whether this particular perk existed or not. I doubt it would have any significant impact on balance should the chance of deflecting arrows be low, especially so if this perk could also be used by other heroes. It would be nice if they went a bit more in depth on explaining how it works. Might've accidentally given Callum a blog idea. 

Uh, I feel I was deluded. Looks like they just move considerably faster in comparison with Warband, that's it. Plus all those sand clouds on each step, they make me feel like guys are Flashes. 26:19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=822&v=TNhs-XKKD-s - look at the guys on the background, illusion of fast-paced movement is very clear.

Heh, it does look like that one guy in the background moves much faster, almost as if he's charging the opponent in front of him. Perhaps just an illusion indeed.

 

[Honved]

I could see having a VERY low chance (1-5%) of deflecting an arrow with a weapon if you've got the weapon between you and the archer...after all, it does physically block a tiny portion of your form from the opponent's line of sight.  It might also make sense to be able to increase that by relatively trivial amount (another 1-3%?) if you're actively trying to put the weapon in the way of the inbound shot, via skill or a perk.  That's STILL considerably under a 10% chance to deflect the inbound arrow.  Any more than that clearly falls into the realm of fantasy, or needs to be performed under carefully controlled conditions, such as a circus stunt where the shooter and deflector have practiced their aim and timing to consistently put the arrow and the blade at exactly the same point at the same time.  In a battle, the opposing archer probably won't be so kind as to aim exactly where you expect, and release the arrow when you're best prepared to block it, so luck should still be the primary factor.

 

[lolbash]

That's STILL considerably under a 10% chance to deflect the inbound arrow.  Any more than that clearly falls into the realm of fantasy

Complaining about deflecting arrows not being realistic,

But then you suggest that deflect arrows should be random chance, as if deflecting arrows real life can be simplified into a dice roll.

 

[wormydowg]

That's STILL considerably under a 10% chance to deflect the inbound arrow.  Any more than that clearly falls into the realm of fantasy

Complaining about deflecting arrows not being realistic,

But then you suggest that deflect arrows should be random chance, as if deflecting arrows real life can be simplified into a dice roll.

Well to be fair, dice rolls are mainly there to simulate real life events without knowing the mathematics behind them.

You are aware that the type of weather in banner lord is decided on by a dice roll right? And not based off the Meteorologist reports recorded back in the 10th century, or any weather based mathematical formula.

But if you wanted deflection to be skill based (Not perk, player skill) and not RNG, then yes you do have a point.

 

[lolbash]

You are aware that the type of weather in banner lord is decided on by a dice roll right?

Source for that snippet of info you just wrote?

Last time I checked snow happens every winter as confirmed in a Developer Blog, and most of the gameplay we seen have shown warm summers during day and night. If it were random why do I not see the Gamescom demo with any rain and thunder or hail and fog?

 

[Honved]

That's STILL considerably under a 10% chance to deflect the inbound arrow.  Any more than that clearly falls into the realm of fantasy

Complaining about deflecting arrows not being realistic,

But then you suggest that deflect arrows should be random chance, as if deflecting arrows real life can be simplified into a dice roll.

Realistically, there's a miniscule chance of the arrow just happening to hit that narrow strip blocked by your weapon (there are a few recorded cases of bullets being stopped or deflected by cigarette lighters, belt buckles, or other small objects), but the likelihood of that happening (with or without actively trying to do so) would be really tiny.  The short time available to react to an arrow's flight, the minimal ability to see its tiny end-on profile in flight at enough of a distance to react, and the effects of air movement lending some nearly random behaviour to its flight path all combine to make intentionally blocking it only marginally more likely than having it happen entirely at random (such as by turning the blade sideways to the shooter, rather than edge-on, to have it present a wider silhouette).  I'm not a big fan of including arrow deflection, but if it IS included, it should be a very minor chance, and any mechanism to add skill into the equation should only be a SMALL improvement to the pathetically low odds.

The problem with NOT just simplifying it into a die roll is that it creates an unrealistic "skill" at doing something which can only be achieved at better than random rates through carefully controlling and coordinating the actions of both shooter and target under perfect conditions, and in this case the shooter is actively working AGAINST you under highly variable combat conditions.  That leaves random chance as the MAIN factor, and the odds are terrible.

Having it happen with any reliability through "skill" merely detracts from the "fun" of the shooter in order to increase the "fun" of the target, so it's NOT a clear case of "FUN>REALISM", it's only a case of what YOU consider fun instead of what some other player would prefer.  Sorry, but whether you like it or not, the world does not revolve around you, and you're going to have to eat a lot more for the effects of gravity due to higher mass to make that happen to any measureable degree.

 

[ArnulfFloyd]

True, every has own tastes but fun is a subjective thing for exemple I found Pendor more fun than Perisno when others not. Same with combat system in BL goes things

 

[lolbash]

I'm not a big fan of including arrow deflection, but if it IS included, it should be a very minor chance, and any mechanism to add skill into the equation should only be a SMALL improvement to the pathetically low odds.

So did you read my solution to turn deflecting arrows into skill based mechanic on the very first page of the thread you are writing in?

Because I literally just suggested exactly that, a way to remove random dice rolling, while still keeping the possiility of deflecting arrows extremely minimal.

Or I should quote it for your convinence

Spoiler

I already made a post on the other thread explaining how to make it skill based. I will quote it here

I have a problem with the deflecting arrows mechanic.

I do not have a problem with the idea itself, but the random chance aspect sits wrong with me, and the idea that it is locked behind a perk.

So I have an idea on how to make it skill based.

The animation during the transition to block would be a great time to deflect an arrow.

For example, I am holding left block. Then I switch to right block.

In the small amount of time that my player switches between blocks is the time in which the arrow can be deflected.

It cannot be anything else, as that would be making it overpowered.



Examples of how I think it should be:

Top block(block overhead swings)->transition animation( deflect arrow )->bottom block(block stabs from spears and swords)

Neutral stance (when player is doing nothing and is vunerable to all attacks ->transition animation (deflect arrow property) -> right block (protect from swings from opponent left)

Holding bottom attack to stab opponent -> transition animation to block (Do not add deflect property here) -> top block.

Also make sure that the deflect can only block 1 arrow at a time as to not make Archers useless against two handers.

In addition, the player must recieve feedback for deflecting the arrow, so when the arrow is deflected the player can do a brief diagonal sword stance, like this

Accompanied with a satisfying sword cling sound.




Please remove the perk limitation, and make it a hidden feature that is standard with all 2 handed weapons like Chambering in Warband

 

[Honved]

So did you read my solution to turn deflecting arrows into skill based mechanic on the very first page of the thread you are writing in?

Because I literally just suggested exactly that, a way to remove random dice rolling, while still keeping the possiility of deflecting arrows extremely minimal.

Yes, you suggested some complex way of making it skill-based, where all you would need in reality to do to achieve similar or BETTER odds would be to hold the blade up in front of you.  Either the arrow is going to randomly impact the blade in its way and deflect, or else it will miss the blade and hit you.  Whether that's purely "skill" or "luck", or a mix of the two, is a question of how much time and freedom of movement you have to spot the arrow and put the blade somewhere in the general vicinity of the arrow's path, rather than use it to fight an opponent next to you; no "swing" is necessary, and only serves to put a time constraint on your attempted block.  An arrow shot from a great distance gives you a little more time to put the blade in the way, and angle it flat so it convers a slightly thicker sliver of your profile, as opposed to a razor's edge.  Basically, it becomes a VERY narrow shield.  Whether the game uses the physical contact of the weapons to determine a hit, or makes it a random chance to happen on each shot, is purely convenience for the programmer, but there's not much more than the proverbial snowball's chance in hell of the character managing to HIT the arrow with a well-timed swing on its way past.  "Skill" really doesn't come into play, and making it a perk is too much like fantasy ninja material, which probably fits your illustration as well.

 

[Callum]

The arrow deflection perk is a skill-based mechanic, similar to how chambering works for example. It requires precise timing to pull it off and it isn't RNG based.

And you don't have to worry about seeing this in MP.