Debate or Discuss on The Economy right now - Pros, Cons and Ideas to make Calradia an better place

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Here is a quote from the first page



Right now the system will consume more food if production is too high through the growth in prosperity. IE the system can never produce too much because consumption will eventually rise to meet it, so prices cannot fall too low.

The problem is that there is no counter system to increase production, so overtime it is possible for not enough to be produced, leading to ever-increasing prices. If there is a simple modifier to production added where increased prices drive up production, then prices will have a very strong tendency to stabilize at some point.

Ah OK. Well, when you said a critical problem I was thinking it was something that would be like the 1.2 patch where the entire economy collapsed within a year. 300% inflation over seventy years isn't that big of a deal, IMO. Especially since troop wages and equipment costs don't increase at all, so the net effect is just making the game easier when caravans haul in probably more than 3K per day.

Edit: This fix would also prevent people from buying up all the supplies to drive prices up and then sell all their stuff for a profit. I also think this might be part of the reason that people report prices tend to even out throughout the world, but I can't be sure.

No, it wouldn't fix that trick. Price increases happen dynamically and effectively instantaneously, while village production takes time to be produced and transported to a town. Additionally, players can (if they want to be bothered) intercept the village parties to buy their production before the villages reach town and or acquire (then convert and sell) competing workshops nearby. Either of those works and have the benefit of not needing to buy existing town stocks at a loss.

Prices even out because caravans are actually working to distribute most goods, like seeing Aserais pop-up in Vlandia. There is a bit of tinkering going on under-the-hood to make sure there are some differences in prices but it also contributes to inflation by making goods (slightly) more expensive than they should be in the long-term.
 
This is just my opinion and some of the points has been touched by others in the thread either in the same line of thoughts or opposite.

Taxes:
Taxes is imo rather small, but I mainly think that a governor should have a greater influenze on the economy of a town/castle both in terms of prosperity but also in terms of taxes paid.

Workshops:
Passive income that needs a buff. It may be just me, but workshops has no bearing on the items being produced in the town, if you make a smith in a town it should have better hightier equipment. Another thing I'd like to see is the ability to "order" an item crafted in the shop reflecting the culture of the town and it would give a bit more usability to workshops.

Mercenary contracts:
I think the contracts should better reflect the quality of the army that's being contracted. A buff early ingame would make the player better able to field an army that reflects the clan level better.

Towns: Town prosperity is too affected by issues in the town or bound villages, basically if you create a "safe" area far from the frontlines, that area should reflect the increased security with less looters/hideouts and in general fewer issues. Towns should also be better linked, basically we have rough areas of production in the game, but this could be elaborated further with fx. rare ressources needed for fx. crafting/ordering special items.

Shopitems:
Greater variety, more locked to culture, high-end items should randomly appear even in low prosperity towns.

Caravans:
Should have a greater impact on a towns econ when a caravan gets hit. Should have larger profitmargins reflecting the investment/risk/reward the player need to make in order to have a caravan. This isn't so much an issue later on ingame, but early on the caravans are often net deficit makers. Atleast for me, but I may just be bad at trading :smile:

Crafting:
First off a critical critique: Random number generator is purely something developers insert because they either lack the imagination to implement an interesting alternative or is too incompetent to develop a deeper and more immersive system. RNG is basically the laziest solution and I give no points for it. Remove RNG entirely, excepting perhaps in the fine/mastery/legendary end result. It's primarily the random nature of getting more bp for items.

Secondly: The items are actually pretty well diverse and usable for different situations, it's not always the best option to take the highest tier handle fx. and I really appreciate that nuance.

Thirdly: Make it deeper. Have a bowyer skill-set, an armoury skill set and req the player to own and operate the appropriate workshop in order to do the crafting (and have crafting fixed in the town(s) where the workshop is.
 
@mexxico I did detect a major problem, the hunt down group of bandits quest from villages if left undone can cause a snowball effect that can cause towns prosperity to go to 0. 3 of the 6 Khuzuit towns are now near or 0 in my playthrough around day 1200. Especially when 2 villages get it at the same time. The quest gives -5 prosperity so when 2 villages from the same town get it that is -10 for quite some time and it snowballs so the lower prosperity gets, the less food they have which lowers prosperity for less surplus food so it just keep getting worse and by the time the town in under 400 it is so hard to build it back up. In my game 3 of the 6 Khuzuit towns are now under 1,000 prosperity so selling to them is almost impossible since they have no money. and also have very little good to sell with low prosperity and they are the best place for chees and butter and to sell grapes and olives.

xy3BP.png


I reduced this issue's effect to -2, you can see it's effect on table. However this change will not be at beta in next patch. Next patch is already on test currently. It will be on beta in 2-3 weeks probably.
 
xy3BP.png


I reduced this issue's effect to -2, you can see it's effect on table. However this change will be on beta in not one further update. Next one is already on test currently.
Thank you that is a much needed change as i have started to notice this quite a lot
 
Also question does the escort caravan quest creqate a new caravan or is it destroyed after the quest.

And also i have been noticing a few quirks here and there nothing special but some entire regions like southern vlandia seem to have a lot of olive press workshops making that region very worthless to sell but ver worthful to buy and i havent changed anything and i dont think this is intended it isnt that serious but because caravans are visting that region a lot its decreasing the global cost of olives.
 
Once again, why not making a min-max setting for towns? So in the List, no City is under 1500 prosperity anymore, but the overall prosperity climbs way higher than before. The average looks better in the first version.
 
Once again, why not making a min-max setting for towns? So in the List, no City is under 1500 prosperity anymore, but the overall prosperity climbs way higher than before. The average looks better in the first version.
Have a Hard prosperity # - Tick up and down towards this number based on difference with Current prosperity - an extra modifier which can balance prosperity.
 
Ok lets disscuss prosperity so in my super late game experiences this is not the greatest measurment for how good a town is doing since in these games towns get to super high prosperity but still be starving but be able to balance it out with that one +1 prosperity project or just constantly lose 1 prosperity but never go down while some towns just get roadblocked at 10k or something of the sorts early game 1k so do you have any sort of solution?

In my recent game, 1.4.3 I noticed that Sturgians Towns were having a low prosperity (1-2k) rather than the Vlandians ones (4k +). This must cause a real unbalance towards these 2 Kingdoms. And ofc Sturgians still get eliminated too quick.
 
In my recent game, 1.4.3 I noticed that Sturgians Towns were having a low prosperity (1-2k) rather than the Vlandians ones (4k +). This must cause a real unbalance towards these 2 Kingdoms. And ofc Sturgians still get eliminated too quick.
I know @mexxico has been working on it and said he will have more balancing after he works on the policies
 
First video talks about some general concepts that goes into the process of developing a game


This one is what the title reads, hopefully it is relevant to the topic.

(enable subtitles)
 
The ability to buy land in villages.
  • Why buy land? To produce resources on it or rent out land and receive passive income.
  • In order to buy land, we need a Tier 1 clan and 4.000 money for 1 land. At Tier 1 of a clan, you can only buy 2 lands and with each new level the number of land plots increases by 2 (at level 6 of a clan, you can have 12 land plots).
  • In 1 village you can only buy a maximum of 4 plots of land. Some lands (2 or 3 lands, depending on how many resources the village produces) will be occupied by the village, which means that out of 4 plots we can buy free land in the amount of 1 or 2 units. We can also buy out the land on which the village produces resources and thereby tighten the market for ourselves.
  • To buy a land plot, you need to talk to the headman in the village, there will be a dialogue: "I would like to buy a piece of land from you."
    After we bought the land in the dialogue, the headman will tell us: "What do you want to do with the land?" We have 2 answer options: I will produce resources on it or I will lease the land.
  • If we choose to produce resources ourselves(rather than rent out land), then we will have an option of what type of industry we will use on our land.
    industry type:farmingcattle breedingminingfactory industry
    resources:Dates
    Flax
    Grapes
    Olives
    Grain
    Cow
    Fish
    Fur
    Horse
    Pig
    Sheep
    Clay
    Iron
    Salt
    Silver
    Silk
    Hardwood
    We can change the type of industry only by talking to the peasant on our land. But you can easily change the resource within a certain industry(in the Other-Lands menu). For example: you have an agricultural industry and you produce a Grain resource, you can easily change the produced resource to Olives, without talking to a peasant, you only need to pay a little money to buy 200-300 seeds. But, if you produce Grain, and you want to produce Iron, then you first need to talk to the peasant and change his industry to "mining" in his dialogue, and then produce Iron.
    An example of a peasant's dialogue:
    Me- "I would like to change the type of industry on my land."
    Peasant- "Ok, what type of industry do you want?
    Dialogue options(Me):I would like to engage in farming.I would like to be engaged in cattle breeding.I would like to be involved in mining.I would like to be engaged in the factory industry.
    Dialogue options (Peasant):Okay, you need to pay 1000 so that I hire the peasants and buy the seeds to plant.Okay, you have to pay 4,000 to build an animal farm, buy feed and hire peasants.Okay, you need to pay 10,000 to build a quarry for mining, hiring peasants and buying tools.Okay, you need to pay 8500 to build a factory, hire and train peasants, and buy tools.
    After you have clicked on a certain type of industry, there will be a dialogue: Me-I agree, get to work. (or)
    I changed my mind, wait.
    Also, if you are producing the resources yourself, you will have an option of what to do with them:
    1)take to the city for sale(auto).
    2)take to the warehouse for storage(you need a warehouse)(auto).
    3)take to the workshop for recycling(workshop needed)(auto).
  • If we choose to lease the land, then we will simply receive 50 dinars from 1 plot per day(passive income).
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Click on "Change resource" and a menu appears:
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Click on "Resource purpose" and a menu appears:
gMwE3Ss.png
Note:If we select "Take to town for sale", then the resources will automatically be sent to the city for sale (in which city we do not choose, the resources will be sold where the villagers sell their resources (who run around the map)).
If we select "Take to the warehouse for storage", then a menu of all the warehouses that we have appears and resources from this land will be taken there.
If we choose "Take to workshop for recycling", then a menu of all the workshops that we have will appear and resources will be taken there for further processing from this land.
How UI Other will look like with the property, workshops and land.
3BJgfSd.jpg
 
Ok so after some break from BL I've played again on 1.5.5 and economy is still in not in shape.

I will separate it in 3 groups: Loot, Settlments, Trade.

1. Loot

In 1.5.5 still the main and must have income source. Even Fighting looters can easly give tons of money. What i would change is to reduce the amount of loot and convert it to party wage reduction after battle won (% based on the size of battle and enemies killed/captured). I would leave only trade goods and gold for player to loot.

2. Settlements

Income from taxes is still the worst source of money. Owning land gives a lot of troubles and cannot even equal the cost of medium class garrison. Settlements are easy to besiege/raid while they are hard to defend if You cannot bring army with You. And if You have big party it's hard to catch small lord parties raiding Your villages. Of course we need to separate here owning a City and owning a Castle cause owning a good city can cover the garrison wages and give some funny profit but Castles are totaly useless and not worth having them. They give no benefits and have no real use in the map or to the owner.

This should be something that everybody aims for. Owning Your own land and it should be able to sustain at least a decent garrison and one party and in case of cities a garrison and 2-3 parties. Also Castles shoul get some use cause right now they are just a marker to own villages and a costly marker. Either remove them and just let players and AI own single Villages or add some worth to them like patrols, tarrifs for going near them or maybe make them into smaller versions of cities with some business around and market.

3. Trade (this includes owning caravans and worksops)

Trade itself (running around buying cheaper selling high) almost doesn't exist. Trade rumors are totally fake. And most prices are flat around the world so there are almost none trade routes that will give more profit thean the cost of troops upkeep.

Workshops and Caravans are something i focused on and tested a little and below are the results.:

Caravan in:
10 years running around (never destroyed)
Attacked 2 times and won both battles
Never made profit bigger than 500 (350 on average)
10 years gave around 420 000 profit

In Comparison brewery in Pravend
10 years without any risks
gives 600 profit on average (1000 max)
10 years gave around 720 000 profit

Initial investemnt on Caravan 22500
Initial investemnt on Brewery 14000

Caravan total profit 397 500
Brewery total profit 706 000

Workshop gave 308 500 profit more than caravan.
There were other workshops that I have that made more profit but i chose Brewery as I think it is most balanced right now.

In conclusion Caravan that should give me more profit but with higher risks gave me a lot less profit with risk still included (i was lucky it wasn't detroyed cause second Caravan was destroyed 4 times)

I'm totally ok with the amount of profit that workshops give but Caravans are really bad now and totally not worth it.

So basically game is only about fighting and selling junk.

@mexxico
 
I think I would love to see
1) maybe 10% reduced caravans implemented, so not so many giving every town tons of goods
2) a small reduction to garrison/militia food consumption as a start to keep settlements from starving
3) Trade levels on companions running caravans have more of an impact
4) reason why days 200-700 seem to have a stall in inflation, then at 700 it just keeps flying high non stop
I have no opinion on these matters, if I was in charge as a developer, I'd go read some economy books and dive head-on into math until I had a formula to create an economical loop, instead of pressing buttons (changing values) randomly and see what happens... It's possible that they've already done that, but any economy has exploits (easy, cheap ways of making money, depending on conditional variables), so might be that they've nerfed stuff until the economy formula was broken. This crusade against "pseudo-exploits" kills any game.
 
Ok so after some break from BL I've played again on 1.5.5 and economy is still in not in shape.

I will separate it in 3 groups: Loot, Settlments, Trade.

1. Loot

In 1.5.5 still the main and must have income source. Even Fighting looters can easly give tons of money. What i would change is to reduce the amount of loot and convert it to party wage reduction after battle won (% based on the size of battle and enemies killed/captured). I would leave only trade goods and gold for player to loot.

2. Settlements

Income from taxes is still the worst source of money. Owning land gives a lot of troubles and cannot even equal the cost of medium class garrison. Settlements are easy to besiege/raid while they are hard to defend if You cannot bring army with You. And if You have big party it's hard to catch small lord parties raiding Your villages. Of course we need to separate here owning a City and owning a Castle cause owning a good city can cover the garrison wages and give some funny profit but Castles are totaly useless and not worth having them. They give no benefits and have no real use in the map or to the owner.

This should be something that everybody aims for. Owning Your own land and it should be able to sustain at least a decent garrison and one party and in case of cities a garrison and 2-3 parties. Also Castles shoul get some use cause right now they are just a marker to own villages and a costly marker. Either remove them and just let players and AI own single Villages or add some worth to them like patrols, tarrifs for going near them or maybe make them into smaller versions of cities with some business around and market.

3. Trade (this includes owning caravans and worksops)

Trade itself (running around buying cheaper selling high) almost doesn't exist. Trade rumors are totally fake. And most prices are flat around the world so there are almost none trade routes that will give more profit thean the cost of troops upkeep.

Workshops and Caravans are something i focused on and tested a little and below are the results.:

Caravan in:
10 years running around (never destroyed)
Attacked 2 times and won both battles
Never made profit bigger than 500 (350 on average)
10 years gave around 420 000 profit

In Comparison brewery in Pravend
10 years without any risks
gives 600 profit on average (1000 max)
10 years gave around 720 000 profit

Initial investemnt on Caravan 22500
Initial investemnt on Brewery 14000

Caravan total profit 397 500
Brewery total profit 706 000

Workshop gave 308 500 profit more than caravan.
There were other workshops that I have that made more profit but i chose Brewery as I think it is most balanced right now.

In conclusion Caravan that should give me more profit but with higher risks gave me a lot less profit with risk still included (i was lucky it wasn't detroyed cause second Caravan was destroyed 4 times)

I'm totally ok with the amount of profit that workshops give but Caravans are really bad now and totally not worth it.

So basically game is only about fighting and selling junk.

@mexxico
Don't forget the Town prosperity that never reach Very High/Abudant.. whatever may it call... It seens towns never goes above the aumount required for the Higher Itens to appear since they're too expensive
 
Don't forget the Town prosperity that never reach Very High/Abudant.. whatever may it call... It seens towns never goes above the aumount required for the Higher Itens to appear since they're too expensive

Yep and i forgot to mention that 10 years of income from caravan is not enough to buy some high tier items (if they ever show up). For example there is a Battanian armour that costs 535 000.
 
So basically game is only about fighting and selling junk.
Yep, that´s it after mid game.

I agree with all of your points.

We need more options for our kingdoms, more diplomancy, more party options.

I avoid getting a castle like hell because for the reasons you mentioned, that´s just wrong.

I guess they would be useful if you and the AI couldn´t just besiege EVERYTHING...would be way better if you can only besiege settlements on the border.
 
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