Debate or Discuss on The Economy right now - Pros, Cons and Ideas to make Calradia an better place

[Flesson19]

would been immersion breaking though for me in this one but yeah could work in an WoW bannerlord mod

we already have smithing, I have said why cant we get armorers and fletchers as well, but make some of the high end components more expensive, lower end items are still easy to make but make the top end equipment expensive so its harder for early people to get and gives late game people a money sink to try and max their companions and themselves with top end armor

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

we already have smithing, I have said why cant we get armorers and fletchers as well, but make some of the high end components more expensive, lower end items are still easy to make but make the top end equipment expensive so its harder for early people to get and gives late game people a money sink to try and max their companions and themselves with top end armor

yes could work as an fast armor smith function probably without the complexity but then it must be resonable

 

[Flesson19]

I am going to start my trader past day 1,000, please if you have a late game economy issue please let me know the issue and appoximately what day it is around so I can watch out for it and get video proof for mexxico since I will be posting each video to Youtube so we can track issues that come up.

 

[HugoTheFrenchMan]

I am going to start my trader past day 1,000, please if you have a late game economy issue please let me know the issue and appoximately what day it is around so I can watch out for it and get video proof for mexxico since I will be posting each video to Youtube so we can track issues that come up.

I would think you have already seen my very late game issues with prosperity and inflation

 

[black_bulldog]

The price of top tier equipment doesn't bother me so much. Its the complete lack of it anywhere that kills it for me. You get to clan tier 5 or 6, you've got endless money to burn but nothing to spend it on. Its very demotivating.

I would agree, there is no reason to gate high tier weapons and armor behind anything else besides cost. I could maybe understand if t6 weapons/armor were reserved for lords but other than that linking it to prosperity is just beyond dumb.

 

[Flesson19]

I would think you have already seen my very late game issues with prosperity and inflation

yes I have made a note and will keep track of all goods for average price and town prosperity every 1000 days

 

[Apocal]

For me the largest issue with economy is the same rapid shift of values that takes place in every game. The shift where horses started out cheap but then gradually become more and more expensive. This also tends to happen with iron and other trade goods. Over a longer period of time a lot of the prices even out more across regions as well, making it harder to find a good deal. That said, I have still been able to earn money from trading all through out the game. Mostly from certain trade goods as well as horses. It gets harder but I just travel further to get a good deal, and there are still deals to be made. This is without using cheap tactics like buying out areas to drive prices up.

So I missed this post on my first read-through, but it comes across as the effect of caravans actually operating for extended periods and certain zones becoming incredibly productive.

Right now, I have a set of Vlandian, Khuzait and Aserai villages that are nearly-pristine, never raided in my playthrough. All of them over 600 hearths (with a few close to 1000) and corresponding large villager parties that never get harassed by bandits. The goods they put out are pretty cheap -- or at least would be if caravans couldn't be counted on to visit the nearest town near-daily and buy all of it.

For one example that seems fairly consistent across playthroughs: compare horse prices at Ain Baliq village to Wadar or Berihal villages. The latter two are virtually always much cheaper than Ain Baliq, because Ain Baliq feeds a town that gets far more caravan traffic than Askar.

 

[HugoTheFrenchMan]

yes I have made a note and will keep track of all goods for average price and town prosperity every 1000 days

Okay thats good

 

[black_bulldog]

So I missed this post on my first read-through, but it comes across as the effect of caravans actually operating for extended periods and certain zones becoming incredibly productive.

Right now, I have a set of Vlandian, Khuzait and Aserai villages that are nearly-pristine, never raided in my playthrough. All of them over 600 hearths (with a few close to 1000) and corresponding large villager parties that never get harassed by bandits. The goods they put out are pretty cheap -- or at least would be if caravans couldn't be counted on to visit the nearest town near-daily and buy all of it.

For one example that seems fairly consistent across playthroughs: compare horse prices at Ain Baliq village to Wadar or Berihal villages. The latter two are virtually always much cheaper than Ain Baliq, because Ain Baliq feeds a town that gets far more caravan traffic than Askar.

Askar is a like a black hole it never seems to do well. I've tried to see if I could make a difference and it just can't get above 3.2k prosperity, the same goes for Revyl but it is much much worse it rarely gets above 2k. I never put 2 and 2 together till I read your post.

 

[Lusitani 5th Empire]

If we want to discuss the economy in the game, I think we all need to know how it works.

I am making some assumptions in my questions and breaking the economy down into 3 section model, raw good production, finished good conversion, and consumption. This may not be accurate, but its my best guess from what I can see in the game.

How do raw items such as grain, hardwood, etc get created: Is it based on just the villages' stats, are the stats for all the connected fiefs considered? Does price affect how much is created?

How do raw items get converted to finished items: Is it a raw conversion formula? does the price of inputs or outputs affect the conversion? Does the difference between inputs and outputs affect conversion?

How are items consumed? Does population affect consumption rates, do prices affect consumption rates? Do consumption rates drive any other changes?

Finally, what other systems affect these areas? How do raids affect each area? What does prosperity reflect? Does prosperity, security, or loyalty change rates of production, conversion, or consumption?

This are the fundamental questions that need to be answered before anything else, otherwise anyone's guess is insignificant to others, simply because you cannot verify how the game works, in order to compare it to what you think.

"Economy issues / problems are minor compared to other problems currently" - mexxico said.

You should not expect any major differences in how the economy is coded, and that's why I would appeal to the devs or even some of you smart guys to explain how the economy is done (based on the code). This way people could actually make proper suggestions, instead of doing them from pure hard experience.
In fact, having proper explanation made by the devs on how the different mechanics work in detail would be a major step forward to improve the quality of the discussion in the forums, and thus, making the developing easier and faster.

 

[Apocal]

If we want to discuss the economy in the game, I think we all need to know how it works.

Eh, a lot of your questions were answered months prior, back when starving garrisons and dead towns were the big concerns. They were super-informative threads but easy to miss. I'll run them down point by point and link (some) of the relevant posts. Some of the specific numbers and features will be currently out of date but the fundamentals haven't changed much to my knowledge. Full credit to @Bannerman Man for doing about 800% more than anyone else on the forum to dig in, understand these systems and explain them in a way that is comprehensible. There were other contributors but he had most of the in-dept explanations.

For starters: Calradia worships Grain.

How do raw items such as grain, hardwood, etc get created: Is it based on just the villages' stats, are the stats for all the connected fiefs considered? Does price affect how much is created?
An individual village's hearths control production.

How are items consumed? Does population affect consumption rates, do prices affect consumption rates? Do consumption rates drive any other changes?
There is no direct population mechanic in the game; it is tied into prosperity. And here, for consumption.

Finally, what other systems affect these areas? How do raids affect each area? What does prosperity reflect? Does prosperity, security, or loyalty change rates of production, conversion, or consumption?
Prosperity reflects the wealth and population of a town. Prosperity offers faster construction and forces higher consumption as a soft-limiter. Raids take away one of the food sources, along with directly damaging loyalty and security.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

is there a leak (bug) in the budget math or something right now ? (on special occasions which triggers it perhaps) I had like 4k and then suddenly went down to 168 denars within like 5 min. I mean my day expenditure is 178 so shouldn't be gone that fast.... Not the first time this have happened to me but i thought at first i just forgot to pump in some money while waiting for the right "war moment" of which have happened in the past. Anyone else feeling something might be wrong here or is it just me ? Well im not certain yet but keep an lookout for certain unexpected dips usually after battles

 

[archd]

How interconnected the economy simulated probably already explained pretty well based on bannerman post in many previous topics. But there is some few things that need to addressed especially how caravan works. For a caravan simulated economy where price of product can be changed as soon as caravan come and go is not the hurdle/ limit are to few? Meaning there should be more difficulty for them? Like higher chance to be pick as Target the higher their number ( assuming higher caravan have Moore goods).
Another point to ask is how many caravan per ai notable can be made?

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

We need that criminal system so we can sabotage and control all the prices mafia style! Make em all pay us a cut if they want to do business in Claradia.!

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

We need that criminal system so we can sabotage and control all the prices mafia style! Make em all pay us a cut if they want to do business in Claradia.!

Yeah im still waiting for the take overs on street blocks as presented way before release to have your own crew running it

 

[daishi5]

Eh, a lot of your questions were answered months prior, back when starving garrisons and dead towns were the big concerns. They were super-informative threads but easy to miss. I'll run them down point by point and link (some) of the relevant posts. Some of the specific numbers and features will be currently out of date but the fundamentals haven't changed much to my knowledge. Full credit to @Bannerman Man for doing about 800% more than anyone else on the forum to dig in, understand these systems and explain them in a way that is comprehensible. There were other contributors but he had most of the in-dept explanations.

For starters: Calradia worships Grain.

How do raw items such as grain, hardwood, etc get created: Is it based on just the villages' stats, are the stats for all the connected fiefs considered? Does price affect how much is created?
An individual village's hearths control production.

How are items consumed? Does population affect consumption rates, do prices affect consumption rates? Do consumption rates drive any other changes?
There is no direct population mechanic in the game; it is tied into prosperity. And here, for consumption.

Finally, what other systems affect these areas? How do raids affect each area? What does prosperity reflect? Does prosperity, security, or loyalty change rates of production, conversion, or consumption?
Prosperity reflects the wealth and population of a town. Prosperity offers faster construction and forces higher consumption as a soft-limiter. Raids take away one of the food sources, along with directly damaging loyalty and security.

Ok, I see one critical problem in all of this that we should consider. Production of raw resources is completely insensitive to price. I suggest that villages should see a boost to their resource production when the price of that resource is high.

If we wanted to be fancy, I would give each village a "capital" stat which represents things like tools and draft animals. I would have it grow as villages sold good for money and give it some sort of percentile decay rate. That would give us growth of villages productivity over time as prices rise, and eventually production would be high enough to start driving prices down, which would eventually reach an equilibrium.

The quick and dirty way would be to just give a village a bonus to production that is related to the price of the good.

The fancy way works more like reality, but the quick and dirty way would at least prevent run away price inflation of a good.

 

[Flesson19]

@mexxico I did detect a major problem, the hunt down group of bandits quest from villages if left undone can cause a snowball effect that can cause towns prosperity to go to 0. 3 of the 6 Khuzuit towns are now near or 0 in my playthrough around day 1200. Especially when 2 villages get it at the same time. The quest gives -5 prosperity so when 2 villages from the same town get it that is -10 for quite some time and it snowballs so the lower prosperity gets, the less food they have which lowers prosperity for less surplus food so it just keep getting worse and by the time the town in under 400 it is so hard to build it back up. In my game 3 of the 6 Khuzuit towns are now under 1,000 prosperity so selling to them is almost impossible since they have no money. and also have very little good to sell with low prosperity and they are the best place for chees and butter and to sell grapes and olives.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

@mexxico I did detect a major problem, the hunt down group of bandits quest from villages if left undone can cause a snowball effect that can cause towns prosperity to go to 0. 3 of the 6 Khuzuit towns are now near or 0 in my playthrough around day 1200. Especially when 2 villages get it at the same time. The quest gives -5 prosperity so when 2 villages from the same town get it that is -10 for quite some time and it snowballs so the lower prosperity gets, the less food they have which lowers prosperity for less surplus food so it just keep getting worse and by the time the town in under 400 it is so hard to build it back up. In my game 3 of the 6 Khuzuit towns are now under 1,000 prosperity so selling to them is almost impossible since they have no money. and also have very little good to sell with low prosperity and they are the best place for chees and butter and to sell grapes and olives.

-5 Prosperity per day is an obscenely high penalty. I really hope that's due to a typo and not a conscious decision because it seems like they pulled some of these values out of a hat.

In the case of the kill bandits quest, if there are really so many bandits in the area then they're already disrupting the villagers on their way to the market, so there's already an indirect hit to prosperity that way, and then you get the double whammy of a -5 daily penalty on top of that

 

[Blood Gryphon]

@mexxico I did detect a major problem, the hunt down group of bandits quest from villages if left undone can cause a snowball effect that can cause towns prosperity to go to 0. 3 of the 6 Khuzuit towns are now near or 0 in my playthrough around day 1200. Especially when 2 villages get it at the same time. The quest gives -5 prosperity so when 2 villages from the same town get it that is -10 for quite some time and it snowballs so the lower prosperity gets, the less food they have which lowers prosperity for less surplus food so it just keep getting worse and by the time the town in under 400 it is so hard to build it back up. In my game 3 of the 6 Khuzuit towns are now under 1,000 prosperity so selling to them is almost impossible since they have no money. and also have very little good to sell with low prosperity and they are the best place for chees and butter and to sell grapes and olives.

Bannerman Man made a post detailing some of the quests prosperity hits, as @Flesson19 says its clear that the quest "Notable needs help with looters" magnitude is out of line compared to other quests (-5 compared to -1/-2). I think it makes sense to rebalance that quests daily impacts.

So what's going on here is that each issue has a small list of various effects of various magnitudes. Not all issues affect prosperity, and of those issues that do, not all of them have a magnitude of -1. Also, some effects can be positive, as is the case with Army of Poachers. Here is a table of the issues that affect prosperity (this doesn't mean it is the only effect of the issue):

Issue	Magnitude
Inn and Out	-0.5
The Spy Party	-1
Artisan Can't Sell Products	-1
Artisan Overpriced Goods	-1
Caravan Ambush	-2
Escort Caravan	-1
Extortion By Deserters	-1
Headman Needs Grain	-1
Herd Needs Delivered	-1
Landlord Needs Manual Laborers	-1
Lord Needs Tutor	-1
Army of Poachers	+2
Notable Needs Help with Looters	-5
Nearby Bandit Base	-1

Note that some of the quests are issued by lords, in which case I don't believe they actually affect prosperity.

 

[Lusitani 5th Empire]

Ok, I see one critical problem in all of this that we should consider. Production of raw resources is completely insensitive to price. I suggest that villages should see a boost to their resource production when the price of that resource is high.

If we wanted to be fancy, I would give each village a "capital" stat which represents things like tools and draft animals. I would have it grow as villages sold good for money and give it some sort of percentile decay rate. That would give us growth of villages productivity over time as prices rise, and eventually production would be high enough to start driving prices down, which would eventually reach an equilibrium.

The quick and dirty way would be to just give a village a bonus to production that is related to the price of the good.

The fancy way works more like reality, but the quick and dirty way would at least prevent run away price inflation of a good.

https://mountandblade2bannerlord.wiki.fextralife.com/Town+Projects - you already have the "Irrigation" under Daily Defaults and you can also build the
"Lime Kilns". But I agree this system should be at least revised once they implement the new mechanics (or before release).