Death of enemy lord - is it even meaningful ATM?

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Lesbosisles

Knight
Howdy, everyone!

Been playing a game some time ago and thought - we have a death in battle feature here, ok. If my companion dies, theoretically, I lose a valuable part of my party - a high level medic or a steward, for example. That makes my life more difficult and that's ok - I don't mind having a little challenge. If I lose a wife, I won't be able to have any heirs until I find a new one, etc.

But there's another side of the coin - AI lords can die too, but I don't see how is that a problem for enemy Kingdom or even a single clan. Suppose I killed a head of the clan - well, next in line simply takes his place and nothing changes. The clan (as I understand) won't lose any influence, they won't lose money, reputation, land - well, nothing changes for them actually. One AI mannequin has died, all hail another mannequin.

So, my question to either devs or data miners/modders who can see the game's code - what are the consequences of losing any member for the AI clan? Are there any at all?
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
So, my question to either devs or data miners/modders who can see the game's code - what are the consequences of losing any member for the AI clan? Are there any at all?
Nothing really, unless you kill enough to drop them below their party limits, in which case they will not field a full three parties.
 
It's not meaningful or useful unless it's an all in strategy. It's like it's own play mode of "Kill all the lords", which is pretty fun. You can even leave a clan or two alive like cattle to be able to marry thier kids to yours and make gen 3, since you can still make marriages with -100 relations. Doing so also shows off the forced passiveness of the AI where even while at war with a faction with hardily any fields power (because all dead) the AI will barely expand on it's own. In older versions I would see the AI really carve up a culled faction but now, it's just footsie with a border castles forever. Probably isn't helped by the culled faction hiring so many mercs and (so far) not having nay rebellion's from nobody doing issues . DO the mercs do the issues? I don't know but I feel like loosing your entire faction should more map changing effects then it does. I keep the last ruler in my prisoners this game, if I kill them the faction will be given to another faction, but I think there should be more going on with just less field parties and stay at home lord around.

It's very lopsided design though, like they put a lot of effort into making perpetual loops for the AI and game world but still haven't added any other stuff for you to do, or any other pressure on the player or game world.
We don't need the AI to last forever if there's nothing else that will ever happen.
We don't need second and third generations if nothing ever happens anyways.
It's fine and dandy to stop the AI from wiping each other out in first decade, but I think the player and player's faction (as vassal or ruler) should be able to circumvent the loop and use strategy to finish the game. That is to say NOT be stuck in the same war/peace patterns as the AI. I don't like the vassals and election system and I think there's not point to being a ruler or having vassals. The game is only interesting to me when I control it.
 

Antaeus

Sergeant
It's not meaningful or useful unless it's an all in strategy. It's like it's own play mode of "Kill all the lords", which is pretty fun. You can even leave a clan or two alive like cattle to be able to marry thier kids to yours and make gen 3, since you can still make marriages with -100 relations. Doing so also shows off the forced passiveness of the AI where even while at war with a faction with hardily any fields power (because all dead) the AI will barely expand on it's own. In older versions I would see the AI really carve up a culled faction but now, it's just footsie with a border castles forever. Probably isn't helped by the culled faction hiring so many mercs and (so far) not having nay rebellion's from nobody doing issues . DO the mercs do the issues? I don't know but I feel like loosing your entire faction should more map changing effects then it does. I keep the last ruler in my prisoners this game, if I kill them the faction will be given to another faction, but I think there should be more going on with just less field parties and stay at home lord around.

It's very lopsided design though, like they put a lot of effort into making perpetual loops for the AI and game world but still haven't added any other stuff for you to do, or any other pressure on the player or game world.
We don't need the AI to last forever if there's nothing else that will ever happen.
We don't need second and third generations if nothing ever happens anyways.
It's fine and dandy to stop the AI from wiping each other out in first decade, but I think the player and player's faction (as vassal or ruler) should be able to circumvent the loop and use strategy to finish the game. That is to say NOT be stuck in the same war/peace patterns as the AI. I don't like the vassals and election system and I think there's not point to being a ruler or having vassals. The game is only interesting to me when I control it.

I guess the problem is, that when they add more aggression to the AI, one eventually reaches a tipping point and snowballs. They make them relatively passive because we all complained when one faction took over the world. Instead, we make a faction snowball.

But then that's what happens in the real world. There is no end. Nothing ever happens until it does. And when it does it's usually just the same things happening a little differently. It would be nice like in real life, if rebellions or mercs formed new factions (even with existing cultures), that might add something different - or if rebels or mercs joined with other rebels or mercs to add to their survivability. Or dissatisfied lords rebelled in groups of clans and formed their own factions...
 

AJAJP_Juan

Knight at Arms
So, my question to either devs or data miners/modders who can see the game's code - what are the consequences of losing any member for the AI clan? Are there any at all?

AFAIK there is nothing more than losing a member, which is a lor more detrimental than you give it credit for.
 

Zyffyr

Recruit
So, my question to either devs or data miners/modders who can see the game's code - what are the consequences of losing any member for the AI clan? Are there any at all?
The lost person is no longer available to :
1)Lead a party
2)Act as a Governor
3)Marry/Have kids

How important those are depends on how many other people are in the clan,and in the case of #2 how many fiefs the clan holds.

For a large clan with minimal holdings the loss is largely irrelevant. For a small clan that somehow has multiple holdings it will limit their future options.
 
So, my question to either devs or data miners/modders who can see the game's code - what are the consequences of losing any member for the AI clan? Are there any at all?
You have to kill quite a few of them, but that only matters as it relates to total manpower. Sometimes it's just more advantageous to capture them for war score, but that's largely anecdotal.

I do find it annoying I can kill their king and the succession happens without any consequence. You figure killing their leader would make them immediately sue for peace and tank loyalty for the entire Kingdom.
 
typically the first generation lords have better stats, so their auto calc combat ability is greater than their kids and wives. but nowadays after 1 defeat they go sit as a governor and let their kids fight anyways. the main problem is that random deaths don't occur outside of player combat which is super bugged.
 

Lesbosisles

Knight
do you mean random deaths in combat outside of player combat?
Cause I've seen other deaths like from old age or givin birth..
Don't know what you're referring though..
Yep, the idea, I think, was that lords should die outside of player's battles too. RIght now death in battle breaks balance in a long-term perspective, since the more battles you participate in, the more lords of YOUR kindgom may die, so your Kingdom gets weakened over time because of the lords shortage while other Kingdoms have no such problem.
 

Zyffyr

Recruit
Its not just your kingdom, though it does get hit far worse than the others. If, as an example, you join S. Empire you will mostly fight the other two Empire factions and the Aserai and Khuzait. S. Empire will become massively short on Lords. N Empire, W Empire, Aserai and Khuzait will be down a bit. Sturgia, Vlandia, and Battania on the other hand will remain full strength (other than Age and Birth related deaths of course).
 

Antaeus

Sergeant
Its not just your kingdom, though it does get hit far worse than the others. If, as an example, you join S. Empire you will mostly fight the other two Empire factions and the Aserai and Khuzait. S. Empire will become massively short on Lords. N Empire, W Empire, Aserai and Khuzait will be down a bit. Sturgia, Vlandia, and Battania on the other hand will remain full strength (other than Age and Birth related deaths of course).

If you're playing as the Southern Empire, the Asari, Kuzaits and other Empire factions will end up with fewer and fewer lords because they all die in battles against you. In my current campaign, the Kuzaits don't even have enough lords left alive to defend themselves even though they have most of their cities - because I fight them to capture their noble troops, rather than to take their cities.
 
Yeah, I turned it off to be honest. Mercenary clans are unkillable and just spawn with new lords and most AI lords reproduce like rabbits. The only one getting shafted is me. I like the realism, and the fact that everything has consequences and all that. But me and my own we're the only one losing lords and to be fair, thats too big of a disadvantage for my taste.
 

Lesbosisles

Knight
Mercenary clans are unkillable and just spawn with new lords and most AI lords reproduce like rabbits
While you have to either hide your wife in the castle, visit her and spent time with her there (meaning, you won't be participating in any fights during that time) or to search for a new wife almost every few months because the previous one has been killed in battle.
 
do you mean random deaths in combat outside of player combat?
Cause I've seen other deaths like from old age or givin birth..
Don't know what you're referring though..
yeah, they only die of old age and child birth. not from battle
whereas lords in your field battles and sieges have a 10% chance or something to die when they are "wounded" or "downed"

considering 90% of all battles happen without the players involvement in auto calc. they should also have a chance to die.

otherwise. the situation becomes the player kingdom has 5x the dead lords as other kingdoms.
 
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