Day 227 Sturgia is no more. I did not even lift a finger.

[Androme1]

It might be worthwhile to totally remove cavalry advantage from simultations to see if that significantly changes the snowballing outcomes

To make a point on this. I did play a game in 1.3.0 (when it was beta before 1.4.0 release), with a mod that removed cavalry bonus completely, and it was the most balanced game I had ever had so far.

Now, I am NOT claiming that the cavalry bonus is the only contributing factor, but it is specifically for Sturgia without doubt one of the major contributing factors, seeing as they border three factions with the most cavalry, while themselves having the least amount of cavalry.

Playing on 1.4.0 now, without the cavalry autocalc bonus removal mod, and they're back to being the punching bag of Calradia.

TLDR: A combination of cavalry autocalc bonus, bad cultural bonus, bad geography/economy and something about the AI.

 

[Hugo_Stiglitz]

Mexxico explained above that their equipment in simulations doesn't do anything. I wonder if they could program something like Fire Emblem has... Spear beats sword, sword beats axe, axe beats spear etc

I specified in Custom Battle and in actual battle, not sim. I know it's a bit off topic, my bad.

 

[TheChewieShow]

I specified in Custom Battle and in actual battle, not sim. I know it's a bit off topic, my bad.

Oh my bad man. Yea there certainly needs to be some balancing done but honestly... I think features should be a priority, like campaign, politics, training etc

 

[Hugo_Stiglitz]

Consider penalties for non Sturgian troops fighting and traveling in the snow.

- 2% HP reduction per night traveling in the snow. Effects player's character, companions and troops that aren't Sturgian. Resting at night inside a city, castle or settlement fixes this downward spiral. Since we don't have the Field Camp option from Viking Conquest resting at night outside city isn't an option.
- Significantly reduced healing rates for non Sturgian troops, characters and Companions moving and resting outside settlements and outside of city walls.
- cumulative negative morale hits for marching in the snow for non Sturgian troops. Resting at night inside a settlement or city cures/fixes the issue.



Consider a mechanic that does the same down south with heat for non Aserai troops.

-Penalties for moving/fighting during the heat of the day. Foreign troops need to move at night with reduced speed and chance of being ambushed(requires ambush mechanic like from Total War).

-Takes longer for non Aserai troops and Characters to heal during the heat of the day in Aserai lands.

 

[AfLIcTeD]

I thought snowballing had been remedied? Hum.....

Most snowballing is fixed. It is mostly just Sturgia getting snowballed by either Vlandia or Khuzaits, or both. Khuzait have a tendancy to snowball. Within the first 50 days they will have taken the eastern half of Northern Empire. Then they will move on to Sturgia and end up looking like OP's map, or move on to Southern Empire. Most other factions don't budge that much.

 

[Bannerman Man]

which brings up another relevant question: in the context of AI auto-calc, does "cavalry ratio" include all mounted troops, including horse archers? Or does it only consider melee/lance cavalry?

All cavalry + horse archers are given the mounted bonus. If it uses a horse it gets the bonus. So since Khuzait has many horse archer/cavalry units they get a fairly significant boost in autocalc compared to other factions.

I thought snowballing had been remedied? Hum.....

They've made a lot of changes to sieges/AI behavior/garrisons/food lately, so it's inevitable that things would break again. It's to be expected because of how dynamic this game is. Making a change to one aspect affects many other aspects as a consequence. It'll be straightened out eventually.

 

[Bramborough]

I thought snowballing had been remedied? Hum.....

Snowball did get remedied, albeit with deliberately temporary measures that were not intended as long-term fixes because they created other problems. Over 1.3.0 and now beta 1.4.0 (as TW has tried to incrementally wean the game off those short-term fixes, I think), the snowball has started to creep back into the game a bit.

But, at least from what I see, there are differences. In "Snowball 1.0", during the first couple days of the game, the snowball was pretty random. It might be any of the factions wrecking or getting wrecked...and pretty rapidly. Now in "Snowball 2.0", it's still a little slower than before, and from what I've seen, it doesn't seem that the snowballer and snowball-victim factions are as random now. Khuzait most likely to be top dog, while Sturgia consistently getting hammered. Just from what I've seen in my games, anyway....and seems consistent with other observations I've seen here in the forum.

 

[Bannerman Man]

cavalry autocalc bonus removal mod

Could you point me toward this mod, please? That's something I might test myself.

 

[Bramborough]

All cavalry + horse archers are given the mounted bonus. If it uses a horse it gets the bonus. So since Khuzait has many horse archer/cavalry units they get a fairly significant boost in autocalc compared to other factions.

Okay...also as I suspected. It's a little frustrating to read, though. Was it not glaringly obvious ahead of time that this auto-calc formula would disproportionately favor one faction above all others? I mean, at some point, someone first had the idea "what if we give a cavalry advantage in auto-calc...seems realistic". In my mind, an immediate "oh wait...that would make Khuzait really OP in auto-calc" seems a no-brainer. Did TW really need weeks of us playtesting this for that lightbulb to come on?

In the midst of all the negativity, I've tried to remain optimistic, constructive, at very least neutral or even silent when I didn't have anything positive to say. But on just a few items, I gotta blow a little steam. For some reason, at the moment, this thing is pushing my buttons, whereas yesterday and probably tomorrow not as big a deal, lol. /rant

(if not already apparent, none of the preceding angst directed at Bannerman Man, or specifically at mexxico for that matter. Thanks to both for the answers and clarifications. ).

 

[Bannerman Man]

Okay...also as I suspected. It's a little frustrating to read, though. Was it not glaringly obvious ahead of time that this auto-calc formula would disproportionately favor one faction above all others? I mean, at some point, someone first had the idea "what if we give a cavalry advantage in auto-calc...seems realistic". In my mind, an immediate "oh wait...that would make Khuzait really OP in auto-calc" seems a no-brainer. Did TW really need weeks of us playtesting this for that lightbulb to come on?

In the midst of all the negativity, I've tried to remain optimistic, constructive, at very least neutral or even silent when I didn't have anything positive to say. But on just a few items, I gotta blow a little steam. For some reason, at the moment, this thing is pushing my buttons, whereas yesterday and probably tomorrow not as big a deal, lol. /rant

It's my feeling that they know that it makes Khuzait more powerful, but they want to try and balance around it rather than remove it. If that were their only bonus it might not be so bad. But there's really no downside to having cavalry, and their cultural trait is one of the most powerful ones (+10% cav move speed). They also don't have any enemys at their backs and can focus all their attention westward. Really their only downside is having the worst bandit type to deal with, and maybe grain being relatively scarce.

 

[Lethal_Sting]

Okay, so I just realized I'm 300+ days into a fresh 1.3 Beta -> 1.4 beta game.

Sturgia is not only alive, but have had multiple wars with Battania and one of the Empires. They have taken Car Banseth and I believe a castle.

The Aserai are the weak faction, having just the far South region. Didn't even notice that Western Empire is on the backfoot.

I have done no merc work for any of the factions, just attacking bandits and warring with the minor clans.

 

[TheChewieShow]

Lethal_Sting I'm doing a time-lapse. Just letting the AI play and I'm just sitting chilling watching Youtube. So far after... 3 years? (The game started on Summer 1 1084) The Kuzait are the dominant faction and Aserai are second.

 

[AfLIcTeD]

Lethal_Sting I'm doing a time-lapse. Just letting the AI play and I'm just sitting chilling watching Youtube. So far after... 3 years? (The game started on Summer 1 1084) The Kuzait are the dominant faction and Aserai are second.

It will be looking like your first map soon lol. Sturgia will be next.

 

[TheChewieShow]

@AfLIcTeD Yup slowly happening.

 

[drallim33]

I don't think it's auto-calc. In another thread I did an experiment where I swapped the troops so that Sturgia had Khuzait troops, and Khuzaits had Sturgian troops. It made no difference in the long run. It might make a difference at the start, Sturgia seems to lose the opening battles with Vlandia more often than not.

I'm pretty convinced the main problem is geographical, it's only a matter of time before Sturgia is busy at the other end of the map when this happens:

They are too far away and cannot react in time. Then while they are busy losing their armies trying to retake Tyal, Battania or Vlandia takes Varcheg, and it's all downhill from there. Tyal is just a juicy fruit waiting to be plucked.

I have seen Sturgia do reasonably well up to the mid game, but it wasn't because they were able to defend their lands with their armies. It was because the Khuzaits decided to mostly leave them alone.

I don't think buffing Sturgians will make much difference honestly, it doesn't matter how strong the army is, if it is 15 days travel away then it can't even contest the fight.

Aserai have the exact same problem and get seem to lose Quyaz and Husn Falq in every game, and I've seen them wiped out after only three years. Sometimes they make some gains into the Southern or Western Empires but they never seem to hold them for long. Same goes for Sturgia, they seem to take Amprela quite often but it's only a matter of time before they lose it, usually to the Khuzaits.

But the faction that gets crushed most consistently in my experience is Northern Empire. Their empire isn't spread out, but they are surrounded on all sides and often end up at war with three factions at once. It's just too much and they get picked apart in pretty much every game.

 

[TheChewieShow]

drallim33 Im working on a ten-year time-lapse from 1 Summer 1084 to 1Summer 1094. So Far the results are... well not great... Mind you that is without player interference, you can see my poor guy sitting and starving lol

 

[AfLIcTeD]

drallim33 Im working on a ten-year time-lapse from 1 Summer 1084 to 1Summer 1094. So Far the results are... well not great... Mind you that is without player interference, you can see my poor guy sitting and starving lol

Called it.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

Actually we did not made major buffs yet. Only fixed lords going bankrupt problem at 1.4 and decreased cavalry advantage to 20% from 30%. Sturgia probably needs more buffs. Please give some time for this, we will work on that.

Does cavalry get a penalty for siege battles? It would be interesting if these buffs were more situational, for example the cavalry buff only applies to non siege battles and foot troops get a buff of 20% in siege battles to even the playing field.

 

[drallim33]

TheChewieShow yeah I've done the same thing a few times, usually it's whoever take Northern Empire's lands, usually either Khuzaits of Southern empire, they end up taking the map.

You should get the "better time" mod, it lets you go even faster.

Game 1: Aserai get wrecked by Southern Empire early on. Sturgia loses Tyal like they always do.

Southern Empire are now too big and eventually take the entire map.

Game 2:
Stugia gets lucky because everyone except Aserai declares war on Battania, and they take a bunch of towns basically unopposed. This is the best I've seen them do, but they still lose Tyal. Aserai loses Husn Falq, of course.

But having taken Northern Empire's lands, Khuzait is too big and is starting to crush everyone. I stopped the simulation here, it was only a matter of time.

Game 3:
Northern empire gets crushed like usual. Looks like another win for southern empire.

Seems like a race between Khuzait and Southern Empire to see who can take Northern Empire's land first. Then they kill Sturgia/Aserai at their leisure and it's all over.

 

[Carabus]

From the screenshots you all posted it seems to me that most frequent thing is not Sturgia losing, but Khuzait winning. This eventually ends with Sturgia losing too, but the Empires also seem in losing position. Which imho signals the bigger issue is Khuzait being OP rather than Sturgia being weak (not saying that Sturgia doesn't have problems because it has many, but there seems to be another issue here).
Khuzait being OP is not a surprise, and most likely comes from 2 things mentioned in this and other threads:
- cavalry advantage in simulations
- Khuzait speed advantage in campaign map - this is possibly bigger issue than the first because it lets them choose engagements, press winning situations and avoid loses.

The question is how to balance these advantages with other factors.
Make their cultural bonus only apply on steppe terrain?
Perhaps decrease spawn rate of recruits in Khuzait lands?
Make cavalry take more than 1 party slots (like 1.2 or so) so cavalry-only armies are smaller?