Damage/protection conception: the elephant in the room

[Philozoraptor]

lol . I haven't even been able to test... the game doesn't work properly to me after updating to 1.8.0.

Did you validate your game files?

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Did you validate your game files?

I'll check it out... but it's weird that after updating the whole package I get that kind of issues. Thanks for the suggestion anyway.

---
Edit: @Philozoraptor
Nothing. I re-download the 1.8.0 package, launch the game without mods, open custom battle and infinite loading screen; I quit. I verify the integrity of the files and relaunch the game. Nothing.

It seems that in the bugs section threads are being opened about it with the same relation. No doubt a problem with the game and compatibilities.

This 1.8.0 is going to cause us more headaches... quite a few things have been altered in vanilla files. But I see that you and Marnah haven't been sitting on your hands and you already have published a RBM version for 1.8.0. Keep up the good work guys ?.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

I think I'd make the arguement that 'nerf bows' is a different discussion to rebalance armour; and probably worth its own thread/ discussion.

 

[D0c1]

I think I'd make the arguement that 'nerf bows' is a different discussion to rebalance armour; and probably worth its own thread/ discussion.

i liked what taleworlds did to archers in the early versions with them not being able to find a target in the dark. if it were up to me, i'd make them shoot in the general direction of the enemy when it's dark. not make them just stand still. this is a good nerf to bows imo.
as to their damage, bows should be able to kill peasants very fast. but heavily armored units shouldn't fall so easily to arrows. so i think it's an armor problem not an archers one.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

i liked what taleworlds did to archers in the early versions with them not being able to find a target in the dark. if it were up to me, i'd make them shoot in the general direction of the enemy when it's dark. not make them just stand still. this is a good nerf to bows imo.
as to their damage, bows should be able to kill peasants very fast. but heavily armored units shouldn't fall so easily to arrows. so i think it's an armor problem not an archers one.

Well it's a pierce damage issue. I guess arguably yes it's an issue with the pierce damage coefficient. But in general I feel the armour changes are relatively good. So either way it's a bow specific change.

 

[five bucks]

Warband had a logical and somewhat realistic system where armour would soak 80% of cut damage, 65% of pierce damage, and 50% of blunt damage.

Bannerlord has gotten to the right place on blunt damage, now it just needs to fix pierce damage.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

i liked what taleworlds did to archers in the early versions with them not being able to find a target in the dark. if it were up to me, i'd make them shoot in the general direction of the enemy when it's dark. not make them just stand still. this is a good nerf to bows imo.
as to their damage, bows should be able to kill peasants very fast. but heavily armored units shouldn't fall so easily to arrows. so i think it's an armor problem not an archers one.

This!

 

[vota dc]

Warband had a logical and somewhat realistic system where armour would soak 80% of cut damage, 65% of pierce damage, and 50% of blunt damage.

Bannerlord has gotten to the right place on blunt damage, now it just needs to fix pierce damage.

That wouldn't weaken spears and thrusting weapons while arrows will always have huge bonus from speed?

 

[LyonExodus]

now it just needs to fix pierce damage

is it just me who thinks pierce is fine but arrows shouldn't be pierce cut and obviously not blunt. but an entire different type altogether?

Like @vota dc said i think if we keep lances and arrows in the same category one of the 2 will always be unbalanced: Spears, as far as horse riding is concerned, seem in a good spot to me.

 

[Helerek]

Honestly stronger armor vs arrows, would bring back the might of crossbows and make them viable against high tier units. Adding another viable unit type to balance table.

 

[five bucks]

That wouldn't weaken spears and thrusting weapons while arrows will always have huge bonus from speed?

Then make spears stab faster and deal more damage - they needed a buff anyway!

Could also consider reducing the speed bonus, yeah.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Then make spears stab faster and deal more damage - they needed a buff anyway!

Could also consider reducing the speed bonus, yeah.

+1 Absolutely
Once you have some chance I'd like to know what you think about the changes. Changes impact in melee in different situation (individual-group), cavalry, etc...It seems that the projectile damage remained the same as always... is that so? Please elaborate; as I cannot test for myself due to the technical issues mentioned above and it will probably be a substantial amount of time before the beta reaches main or a hotfix is received that fixes the problem. Thanks in advance.

 

[five bucks]

+1 Absolutely
Once you have some chance I'd like to know what you think about the changes. Changes impact in melee in different situation (individual-group), cavalry, etc...It seems that the projectile damage remained the same as always... is that so? Please elaborate; as I cannot test for myself due to the technical issues mentioned above and it will probably be a substantial amount of time before the beta reaches main or a hotfix is received that fixes the problem. Thanks in advance.

I've been doing this playthrough with throwing axes and a blunt weapon. Its damage seems alright and not OP, fantastic with cavalry speed bonus. Battles last longer now, which is good.

And yes, unfortunately arrow damage is almost the same as before. HTK against armour for arrows only increased a tiny bit.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

I've been doing this playthrough with throwing axes and a blunt weapon. Its damage seems alright and not OP, fantastic with cavalry speed bonus. Battles last longer now, which is good.

And yes, unfortunately arrow damage is almost the same as before. HTK against armour for arrows only increased a tiny bit.

Thank you for your reply. Hopefully Taleworlds will be able to make the same kind of successful changes to other aspects of the combat system.

Regarding the spear issue, I want to bring back this test I posted here



...and ask you guys a question.

In the video reference thread, I made mention of a significant increase in the polearm skill of that particular troop. My question is (I didn't get to check it in campaign) if by editing that xml parameter, the troop would be affected in terms of money/acquisition value/wage ?

If there are no collateral effects, that tweak + a lowering of the projectile damage produced directly by editing the values of the item itself in the xml; could be an easy and satisfactory solution.

 

[froggyluv]

Was the Cav Melee attack ever fixed? Last time I played the Cav still didnt know how to cut angles proper from horseback -a first in this series

 

[MostBlunted]

So after about 10 hours without mods:

It´s better than before, that´s it. It´s still not "good", armor is still not enough. RBM > Vanilla

See you next year...

 

[Akka]

The change to armor are a step in the good direction, but still pretty meh. The formula is still needlessly convoluted for something that could be both much more straightforward and easily balanced. This weird separation between blunt and non-blunt damage, where "blunt" is actually used as "armor piercing" and works in several layers, is both unintuitive and giving strange results.

I'll keep using my homemade mod, thank you.

 

[five bucks]

Was the Cav Melee attack ever fixed? Last time I played the Cav still didnt know how to cut angles proper from horseback -a first in this series

They still miss 90% of stab attempts in 1.8

 

[Spinozart1]

Thank you for your reply. Hopefully Taleworlds will be able to make the same kind of successful changes to other aspects of the combat system.

Regarding the spear issue, I want to bring back this test I posted here



...and ask you guys a question.

In the video reference thread, I made mention of a significant increase in the polearm skill of that particular troop. My question is (I didn't get to check it in campaign) if by editing that xml parameter, the troop would be affected in terms of money/acquisition value/wage ?

If there are no collateral effects, that tweak + a lowering of the projectile damage produced directly by editing the values of the item itself in the xml; could be an easy and satisfactory solution.

Does it mean you finally managed to get 1.8.0 working on your Win7?

Spawn rate, recruitment cost, wage, upgrade cost and xp gain are not linked with the troop skill level.
Affecting parameters are mainly troop tier/basic or elite type/regular or mounted/mercenary type/bandit type + specific perks.
One easy test would be to set all the skills of a Vlandian recruit to 300 , cost and spawn rate wouldn't be different.

[EDIT]
With 1.8.0 TW improved the armour efficiency, and the poll trend may start to change.
I personally find the new values more balanced and those changes are positively improving the combat experience.

 

[Madijeis]

Damn, the madlads went and did it huh? Fighting top tiers early on is now properly terrifying. Hits which used to be safe 20s now roll single digits pretty consistently. Lances are essential in navigating these battlefields early on, and while arrows are still somewhat terrifying, they're not as silly as before