Daggers need some love

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Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
fUxXl8h.jpg

Daggers has always been a weapon I have enjoyed in RPGs, but in Bannerlord they really don't have a purpose other than for role playing reasons. That said just want to see what others thoughts are on the subject and thrown down some ideas and put it in the suggestion thread if we come up with some vetted ideas. Here are some of my thoughts on the topic of improving daggers in the game.

Dagger Sheaths

It would be nice if daggers had sheaths, looks bad when they just hang unsheathe on your side. This would be a nice little touch to fleshing this unfinished weapon out, plus having a dagger sheath looks cool when next to a sword sheath like what knights often wore together. They just look terrible without them and the main reason I don't use them. I just go with throwing knives since they have a case.

Back Stabbing

Let’s bring back stabbing back to the series and maybe just limit it to daggers to simulate finding the chinks in armor.

Dagger Thrust Speed

This is something that should be improved as well as they are kind of slow and would make them more appealing for rogue missions.

Better Melee Stats vs Throwning Knives

One of the things daggers should have over throwing knives is better melee stats, currently they are about the same which is another reason to just take throwing knives over a dagger. A dagger should be superior to throwing knives used as a melee weapon as they are weighed differently and are designed for close combat.

Rogue Tree Perks

There should be some rogue perks that improve dagger fighting to encourage their use in missions and thug battles. Daggers should be nasty if the player puts in the time to develop a character to use them. For example they could be nice for an archer character that wants to keep their gear light to be able to move fast on the battle field.

Off-hand Dagger

There should be an off-hand dagger that equips in the shield slot, the player would still block with their main right hand weapon, however the off-hand dagger would use the shield bash attack for a quick stab attack with the off-hand weapon and not to mention it would look badass.

These are just my ideas on how daggers could be improved in Bannerlord and used as a viable weapon for rogue type characters. Any thoughts?
 
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MostBlunted

On probation
Daggers don´t really fit into huge medieval battles, I don´t think any sane person would choose a dagger as his main weapon.

Would fit into some bandit gameplay, if we had any :grin: .
 

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Hey the Romans used large daggers and they did just fine! :grin:

That said it is more intended for rogue game play and as a light sidearm for an archer character who wants to be as fast as possible on their feet.
 

MostBlunted

On probation
Hey the Romans used large daggers and they did just fine! :grin:
They also were able to keep their formations :wink:

But yes, why not. I´m not saying that I don´t like your suggestions.

I just think it would be "weird" if there is one guy running around on the battlefield and backstabbing people. I mean I´m doing it too, but with 2h weapons and because the AI isn´t smart enough to handle it :grin:
 

KingEroc1st

Veteran
seriously needs to add offhand/dual wield into the game

and yeah, make daggers able to parry or something/

also, give throwing daggers some more stack size. i mean 3 is just wtf lol i can hide that many in my left boot alone.
 
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Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Daggers are pretty pointless at the moment and I'm not sure if they'd ever really have a place in the game as it is. I do think they ought to be a LOT faster than any other weapon. They also should have a dedicated weapon slot rather than taking up one of the four main slots. Nobody's gonna bring a dagger to battle in place of a bigger weapon, but everybody would have a dagger in addition to their other gear. If there was something like weapon breakage or disarming in the game, then a handy dagger could be a lifesaver
 

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
no add spear into the game first

What do you mean spears are already in the game? My current character uses a custom spear on foot with deadly effect. Kind of like the Viper character from GOT.

I have been playing a lot of prison breaks lately and I really want to use a dagger as large weapons catch on walls and door ways. Daggers just leave much to desire like no sheaths and need faster thrust attacks.

I used a dagger with an archer character with high athletics in the past when your character could run super fast and it was a lot of fun if you got the right perks for example these perks make daggers work well in battle as a sidearm:

Duelist + 20% damage
Dash and Slash + 50% speed damage while on foot
Surging Blow + 30% speed damage while on foot (this helps a lot with a fast character)

Daggers are unfinished and these are just some ideas for TW to consider when they get around to fleshing out the rogue/bandit system.
 
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Moth_Queen

Recruit
If chambers were a thing, chambering hits would be an assasin move.

Methinks In Warband you could sneak into a fortress and use just knives and a stick thief-style.
 
Not really into daggers, but I reckon the game could use with more short blades. More long seaxs, skenes, that sort of weapon. Too many swords atm.
 

Poddicus

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Back Stabbing

Let’s bring back stabbing back to the series and maybe just limit it to daggers to simulate finding the chinks in armor.
Yeah because assassins in Mercs were sooooo much fun and make complete sense, right? :neutral:

Off-hand Dagger

There should be an off-hand dagger that equips in the shield slot, the player would still block with their main right hand weapon, however the off-hand dagger would use the shield bash attack for a quick stab attack with the off-hand weapon and not to mention it would look badass.
No there shouldn't. Using a dagger in this kind of medieval setting sounds ridiculous, we're not swash bucklers and this isn't high fantasy, as suggested by your image. Don't think I have to go into how dual wielding is ****ing stupid and takes a lot of skill blah blah
But shield bashing is already annoying as **** as is, no need to make it even worse.

Otherwise daggers are cool but they have 0 use. There's no sort of disarming feature in the game. Although expanding on daggers would make a lot of sense if you were able to go into city scenes and play them as a rogue like, stealing, assassinating, that kind of thing. Not gonna happen tho., sadly.
 
With a dagger you can quite easily stab a warrior fully protected by plate armor simply by inserting the dagger between the gaps in the armor (in the joints for example) once you are able to get into close combat with it.
Often the warriors carried a dagger or a small knife just for similar occurrences.

But obviously in a game like bannerlord how could such a feature be exploited?
We need an armor system that takes into account these "gaps between the parts of the armor".

In this way spamming would be useless and instead we should aim well in those uncovered points.

And here I place the link of my suggestion for the armor system:
JOINT HURTBOXES and ARMOR HURTBOXES: an armor system that provide a way to balance factions warfare and make more deep the combat system(suggestions)
 

Lesbosisles

Knight
We need an armor system that takes into account these "gaps between the parts of the armor".
This would've required a total complex rework of the whole combat system. I can't even imagine how could one create such a system with the existing combat mechanics. Even Kingdom Come Deliverance didn't have such thing.
 
I would be satisfied with a dagger if it would take no slot from those 4 player has at disposal. The same should be done with a lance having own slot on a saddle not taking any of those 4 player has (or for one quiver if no lance is used).
 

Ted Striker

Veteran
With a dagger you can quite easily stab a warrior fully protected by plate armor simply by inserting the dagger between the gaps in the armor (in the joints for example) once you are able to get into close combat with it.
Often the warriors carried a dagger or a small knife just for similar occurrences.

But obviously in a game like bannerlord how could such a feature be exploited?
We need an armor system that takes into account these "gaps between the parts of the armor".

In this way spamming would be useless and instead we should aim well in those uncovered points.

And here I place the link of my suggestion for the armor system:
JOINT HURTBOXES and ARMOR HURTBOXES: an armor system that provide a way to balance factions warfare and make more deep the combat system(suggestions)
It's not easy. They were used when one knight fell prone or maybe if two grappled. The kinds that were generally used to deliver that death blow were thin and pointed. They had no cutting edge so slashing around with one like it was a large knife wouldn't do much.

In general, you're not breaking out a dagger vs a knight with any other weapon. That's suicide. And you won't be parrying blows from a mace or warhammer with your dagger either (some people seem to think you'll just parry attacks because a dagger is so fast and nimble). Good luck parrying an arming sword too. Good luck parrying anything really. That's videogame fantasy. Same with duel wielding...ugh duel wielding...

Daggers were a backup weapon, a coup de grace, and a tool. Even in the 16th and 17th centuries when dueling with rapiers was a studied martial art daggers were offhand only, if used at all. The rapier and main gauche style wasn't the most popular.

They don't really have a place in a game like this, or in this time period for that coup de grace.

EDIT: Ok just though of something: Perhaps a dagger stab can be implemented with a key stroke, like a kick is. Would barely be effective but maybe if you only have long polearms it might be slightly useful. Maybe.
 
This would've required a total complex rework of the whole combat system. I can't even imagine how could one create such a system with the existing combat mechanics. Even Kingdom Come Deliverance didn't have such thing.
It is actually simpler than it looks.
The system could almost remain as it is.

When attacking from horizontal directions, what must be allowed is a rotation of the plane in which these blows occur.
This already happens but it is necessary that the plane on which the blow travels is clearer.

In the case of lunges, however, these are prepared in the same way but it is necessary to make the point where they will hit more evident and obviously the aim is taken on a vertical plane (clearly you do not see the plane eh).

The trick to balancing the system is to make the uncovered hurtboxes (those between gaps or joints) balanced enough in size so that they are hard enough to hit but still possible to hit.
Furthermore, the position of these hurtboxes must not be too hidden and too small in size, otherwise it will not be possible to hit them.
Furthermore, attention must be paid to the fact that the surface they expose with respect to the total surface of the character is a degree of freedom on which to act to balance the relationship between the ranged and melee units.

If you really meant what would be difficult then it would be getting the AI to hit the right spots.
In practical terms, the AI should know what angles the planes of the blows must have or how the lunges must be directed to hit the weak points.
I don't think it's impossible but maybe that's the point that requires more work.
 
It's not easy. They were used when one knight fell prone or maybe if two grappled.
with close combat I meant precisely in cases where they clung to each other etc. .. I did not express myself well because I assumed that those cases were implied.
But such cases cannot occur in the game, so the only possible cases are those in which you execute a lunge and let the blade enter the gaps.
Obviously attacking a warrior in full plate with a knife is suicide, but this does not mean that it cannot happen or that one cannot come out victorious (with a lot of luck, skill and incompetence of the opponent).
And you won't be parrying blows from a mace or warhammer with your dagger either (some people seem to think you'll just parry attacks because a dagger is so fast and nimble). Good luck parrying an arming sword too. Good luck parrying anything really. That's videogame fantasy. Same with duel wielding...ugh duel wielding...
And you are right.
But the point here is not to get the dagger to block a club.
The point is that with a dagger you are able to face an enemy.
In reality, not in this game, people can take quick steps to avoid getting blows to the face.
A mace is a fairly unbalanced weapon, with a greater moment of inertia than a sword or weapons that guarantee a greater angular velocity.
A club could be avoided ... if only one could take a quick step in a given direction ..
Of course, this quick step doesn't have to be spam.
And above all it doesn't have to be a somersault.

Imagine an agile person with a knife who "nimbly and fortunately", using a quick step, dodges a blow from the warrior's mace covered with plates and after one of the warrior's unbalanced attacks, steps forward and sticks the dagger between the slits of the helmet or in the armpit with a lunge, and then retreat with another quick step (maybe he is skinny and knows he cannot fight with the beast protected by the armor).

NON-SPAMABLE DIRECTIONAL STEP-DODGE new mechanics suggestion

Daggers were a backup weapon, a coup de grace, and a tool. Even in the 16th and 17th centuries when dueling with rapiers was a studied martial art daggers were offhand only, if used at all. The rapier and main gauche style wasn't the most popular.
True.
They don't really have a place in a game like this
From the mechanics I wrote above you can deduce that I do not agree.
It is not a question of "having a place".
If you happen to be in a given situation with a given weapon then you must have every chance you would have in reality to be able to use it to the fullest.

Did they put in the daggers and daggers? And then they find meaning in their insertion.
I gave him the meaning.
If they want, they take the hints, otherwise we keep the useless daggers.

EDIT: Ok just though of something: Perhaps a dagger stab can be implemented with a key stroke, like a kick is. Would barely be effective but maybe if you only have long polearms it might be slightly useful. Maybe.

mmm I don't know how to give you an opinion about it.
A simple lunge wouldn't say much from a stab with a push of the button.
I added that link to the armor system just to suggest that you don't need to do anything other than just lunge if the armor system is modified to allow attacks between gates.
In practice it means increasing the number of hurtboxes and making some small and not covered by armor, while you can greatly increase the armor value of those that are covered,
so as to make the parts of the body covered by armor very protected, those not covered vulnerable, and the joints and openings always vulnerable.

In this way, lunges with all kinds of weapons, directed in the right places, would be effective.
 

Ted Striker

Veteran
Won't work in a game like this. The gaps in armor are too small to aim at, and just simulating it by registering hits in the general area would lead to cheesing it and the game has enough cheese (Smithing anyone? Massive two-handed polearms swung from horseback like they're pool noodles?).

It would have to be something like a move that grapples your target and uses the dagger after, but again it would lead to so much cheese.
 
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