Custom Troops Discussion

[Sarin]

Clash of the cultures.

On one hand, we have Leonion, showing typical Russian, and to a degree generally Slavic, characteristics. Saves any smile or words of praise, or even acknowledgement, for times when it really matters, easily gets confrontational, tends to respond to anything percieved as offending by responding with more of the same, and when he feels like he knows best...he acts like he does.

On the other, it appears to be product of typical US/west European consumer culture. Used to the politeness and smiles to the point he demands them even if they're fake, believes in "customer is always right", percieves any disagreement not prefaced by tons of apologetic phrases and threatening and demands to see a manager.

Now for the actual bit of criticism: the evaluation of crossbows doesn't seem to take into account properly the ammo count difference, and how large portion of the total damage it is when used with different crossbows. While the high penalty for using high powered bolts might be balanced for weaker crossbows, high powered crossbows suffer way too much from this tradeoff, despite being only marginal increase in total damage, due to higher ammo count of lower powered bolts.

For example, Master's Crossbow. With steel bolts, it's 118 damage x 40 shots. With dwarven bolts, it's 130 damage x 36 shots. Rounded, it is 10% damage increase, 10% decrease in shot count. I'd call it even tradeoff, yet the tradeoffs I had to do for it...

Spoiler

For dwarven crossbow, it is, rounded, 14% damage increase for 10% shot count. And again, the tradeoff, this time on horse archer...

Spoiler

So, yeah, I really think this needs some refinement.

 

[Leonion]

Now for the actual bit of criticism: the evaluation of crossbows doesn't seem to take into account properly the ammo count difference

Neither does it take into account the number of arrows (so you can minimax these things "for free").
The problem is: I simply can't take them into account for any cases when there is more than 1 quiver.
If I am to add this into the formula, I have to be precise, but I can't. Your soldiers may spawn with 1 quiver or 2 quivers, but which quivers will it be and what the exact chance is, we don't know (I did some tests in the past but afaik random item selection depends on your hardware).
So just give your troops quivers with high number of arrows/bolts, unless you really prioritize the damage (or looks).

 

[Sarin]

Now for the actual bit of criticism: the evaluation of crossbows doesn't seem to take into account properly the ammo count difference

Neither does it take into account the number of arrows (so you can minimax these things "for free").
The problem is: I simply can't take them into account for any cases when there is more than 1 quiver.
If I am to add this into the formula, I have to be precise, but I can't. Your soldiers may spawn with 1 quiver or 2 quivers, but which quivers will it be and what the exact chance is, we don't know (I did some tests in the past but afaik random item selection depends on your hardware).
So just give your troops quivers with high number of arrows/bolts, unless you really prioritize the damage (or looks).

I see, but I think that, even if you use imprecise formula for multiple quivers, something like averaging the ammo count and damage of quivers, it will be better than current situation.

 

[saxondragon]

Expected reply.  No humility or humbleness whatsoever.  Just more smug and arrogant behavior from someone with the mentality of an 8-year old who can't handle criticism, and views everyone who doesn't have something positive to say as a whiner or entitled brat.  I guess I'll give Perisno the middle finger, just as you've given the playerbase of Perisno the finger.  Hopefully, people get sick of your attitude and just stop playing altogether.  Maybe then you'll be a bit more humble.

Now that's a little uncalled for. He's done a lot of things trying to balance the custom mercenaries because the playerbase kept complaining too OP and made everything too easy, so he gave it restrictions then the playerbase complained about the restrictions on (x type) equipment on (y type) unit, he even extended the tree to give players more freedom on choices rather than limiting them to the regular infantry-cavalry-archer types. And further more, he's been active at trying to fix bugs and answer the playerbase' questions and requests. So a little understanding for the guy and his hard work would be great. He's not God who can answer all our requests and he has his own ideals he wants to keep for their mod. We don't own the mod, we don't pay him to make us the mod. It's not easy what he does so give him a break will you.

All totally irrelevant, and most certainly well deserved.  The Hired Troops are an afterthought.  The problem is anyone who disagrees with what he says or does is labeled as a whiner and entitled, and he personally attacks them in his replies to their questions or opinions, or he just outright ridicules them (God forbid they have a question that sounds dumb).  Rather than being open to criticism or suggestions, it's a dictatorship with "F*** you.  I'll do what I want", clearly illustrated by this gem of a post:

I created the custom troops.
I balanced the custom troops.
I polished the custom troops.
And they will be in the game the way I see them, like it or not.

The fact that this is just a mod and not a game or company only means that he has no limitations with his attitude and the way he treats people.  He has no oversight.  No one is going to come along and tell him to knock it off, because nothing is going to happen if he doesn't.  If this were a game, the players would be enraged and the game would barely sell.  If it were a company, he'd be fired for his horrendous people skills.  So, he can rage, attack, and belittle people all he wants because there's nothing anyone can do about it.

In all honestly, I'm kind of shocked no one has said anything earlier.  As I said, this isn't his first little outburst or tantrum on the forums.  Since he mentioned PoP, I went through their forum threads and not once did I come across any threads or posts with the creators or developers attacking, insulting, or belittling their playerbase (though they do have a "Suggestions and Feedback" thread).  In fact, there were lots of posts with "Thanks for your feedback".  Pick almost any thread Leonion has posted on, and you've got a good chance of finding at least one.

In any case, like I said...  Dealing with changes are one thing.  You either like them or don't, and you continue to play on through it all or you don't.  If you don't like changes that were made, the players should be able to voice their concerns freely without being chastised by the guy "made it all".  If you don't see anything wrong with the way he treats people who play his mod, then you're part of the problem as well.  Maybe if you guys grew a pair, instead of trying to be balls deep in "the friend zone" with Leonion (like it's going to benefit you at all, anyway), then more of you would say something to him about his arrogant outbursts.  Maybe, just maybe...  -=gasp=-  ...He'll stop.  That brings up one more thing; Where are the other dudes who work on this mod?  Are they OK with how he treats people on the forums?  Do they find childish tempertantrums on the forums because of his "how dare someone disagree with me" persona, acceptable?

I also missed this from his previous post:

(And I'm not saying I have this visionary capacity or that Perisno is such a mod, just pointing out I don't have to listen to the likes of you, who don't provide any constructive feedback  - with screenshots, numbers, test results, calculations, - but just complain about what they personally don't like).  ---  This is addressed directly to someone who has played and posted on the Perisno forums for years and never once complained about a single thing, ever, except the Hired Troops change.  I've also provided positive feedback on a lot of changes that were made, though not in the capacity which is apparently acceptable to him (i.e., not the way he wants it, so -=middle finger=- you don't matter).

So.. please give us a link to your mod to show us how it is done.  Looking forward to it.


Kindest regards,


Saxondragon

 

[Tiger of the East]

-SNIP- too long

If you've actually read your own post then you'll know you're the one who's on the wrong here. If there's something you dislike and your request is disregarded then ask for a solution or at least post something in the forum. There is someone bound to help you and give you some temporary fix. Either that or you modify the mod yourself, that's what I've been doing. This is not our mod, it's theirs and we only play it for free so we don't have the privilege to really complain. If you've tried making your own mod, you'll know it's hell a lot hard to make, balance and even fix. I tried to make them, and I failed eveytime(My fault in the first place since I don't start small and always aspire for a bigass mod comparable to Perisno and PoP).

So again, give the guy a break. There are a lot of us players, and if each one of us keeps complaining everyday to him then one way or another, he will lose his temper. After all, he's only human. You can only push someone too far till they break.

 

[King Edric]

Expected reply.  No humility or humbleness whatsoever.  Just more smug and arrogant behavior from someone with the mentality of an 8-year old who can't handle criticism, and views everyone who doesn't have something positive to say as a whiner or entitled brat.  I guess I'll give Perisno the middle finger, just as you've given the playerbase of Perisno the finger.  Hopefully, people get sick of your attitude and just stop playing altogether.  Maybe then you'll be a bit more humble.

You are wrong on pretty much everything you said about Leonion, but others already said what was needed.

So how about this. You bugger off with your salty ranting which makes zero sense and keep a very small bit of dignity you have left. Oh and by all means, don't let the browser hit your sensitve head on the way out.

 

[locochombok]

Well it seems that here are a deep discussion about other things, but i have a question related to household/mercenary player troopsa, does the race of the troops affect any stats or skill? or it affects the quality % of certain equipment (i mean, like if elves a can carry a better bow and arrows than humans).

Plus: I think there would be good having a sub-branch from cavarly to light  cavarly i mean, the riders could divide into two sub-branches, 1.- the one we already have and 2.- a end troopa, it wouldn't be top tier (as every light cav), but i will be cheaper.

 

[Dago Wolfrider]

Well it seems that here are a deep discussion about other things, but i have a question related to household/mercenary player troopsa, does the race of the troops affect any stats or skill? or it affects the quality % of certain equipment (i mean, like if elves a can carry a better bow and arrows than humans).

Plus: I think there would be good having a sub-branch from cavarly to light  cavarly i mean, the riders could divide into two sub-branches, 1.- the one we already have and 2.- a end troopa, it wouldn't be top tier (as every light cav), but i will be cheaper.

Research started. Grant me 15 minutes or more.

Version used 0.9
Mercenarieswarfs are stronger than Elves and Humans ( +4 strength ).
Household guards: Giants are much more stronger than other races ( + 16 ), but less agile and clever ( - 8 agility and - 3 intelligence ). Giants have better PS, PT, PD ( +1 ), less Horse Archery ( - 2 ) and Riding ( - 1 ). Worst thing is they have - 50 in all proficiencies compared to other races. 
Both: Females' stats = Males' stats

P.S. Light cavalry/wolves are much better than heavy cavalry in many cases ( for horse archers, to chase horse archers,... ). Therefore I do respectly disagree. I lost tons of heavy cavalrymen because of Dothrakis in AWOIAF.

 

[King Edric]

Aren't the Dothraki incredibly trash in AWOIAF?

 

[Dago Wolfrider]

Aren't the Dothraki incredibly trash in AWOIAF?

Yes ( 1 arrow=1 dead Dothraki ), but they are fast and their parties are quite big. Heavy cavalry can hardly reach them and they end up surrounded miles away from your infantry. You must use light/fast cavalry. AWOIAF has the Improved Horse Archer AI. Free folks are an easier target.

 

[King Edric]

Hm... well then I may give 'em another shot

 

[Tiger of the East]

My lil bro who is also playing Perisno is wondering if by chance we can have "Custom Nobles", like something that's a little bit better than Custom Troops but little weaker than the Household units. They can be harder to comeby/aquire than Custom Troops and is only offered by Ingvar or some other NPC in the Mercenary Fort. Any thoughts on that?

 

[T.L.S.]

My lil bro who is also playing Perisno is wondering if by chance we can have "Custom Nobles", like something that's a little bit better than Custom Troops but little weaker than the Household units. They can be harder to comeby/aquire than Custom Troops and is only offered by Ingvar or some other NPC in the Mercenary Fort. Any thoughts on that?

Top tier mercs already stronger than most of noble troops... And difference in terms of stats between them and households isn't that large to put something inbetween

 

[Dantelh]

My lil bro who is also playing Perisno is wondering if by chance we can have "Custom Nobles", like something that's a little bit better than Custom Troops but little weaker than the Household units. They can be harder to comeby/aquire than Custom Troops and is only offered by Ingvar or some other NPC in the Mercenary Fort. Any thoughts on that?

Top tier mercs already stronger than most of noble troops... And difference in terms of stats between them and households isn't that large to put something inbetween

There could be a tier or two shaved off. Player mercenaries are quite strong, and it's become the point of many debates. I think a compact tree without an extra noble line is better, though if a noble line was added, the tree could possibly be modified. But the equipment management would be even more bothersome to balance, even if a few tiers were removed.

 

[PrincessCurti]

If custom Nobles existed, they would be virtually invincible...imagine the devastation 

 

[Leonion]

I can't see any reasons to add additional custom nobles.
Current household guards fill this role perfectly.

 

[L4RSO]

I can't see any reasons to add additional custom nobles.
Current household guards fill this role perfectly.

Agreed.

Is there any chance of getting the Falcon added as a playable culture. OP tree rework, or maybe not the OP tree but just with the basic set of troops, ie the ones you get from recruiting big falcon patrols when your a falcon lord would even be fine??

Just sucks to have a major faction that’s unplayable, my favourite culture / lore / gear as well.

Edit: I just read you can change to falcon culture with 75 faction relation and 50 field Marshall relation. Is this true and which troops will you be able to recruit?

 

[Dago Wolfrider]

I can't see any reasons to add additional custom nobles.
Current household guards fill this role perfectly.

Agreed.

Is there any chance of getting the Falcon added as a playable culture. OP tree rework, or maybe not the OP tree but just with the basic set of troops, ie the ones you get from recruiting big falcon patrols when your a falcon lord would even be fine??

Just sucks to have a major faction that’s unplayable, my favourite culture / lore / gear as well.

Edit: I just read you can change to falcon culture with 75 faction relation and 50 field Marshall relation. Is this true and which troops will you be able to recruit?

Read this: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,360179.0.html.
Specifically this: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,360179.msg8699144.html#msg8699144.

P. S. I agree with Leonion too.

 

[L4RSO]

I can't see any reasons to add additional custom nobles.
Current household guards fill this role perfectly.

Agreed.

Is there any chance of getting the Falcon added as a playable culture. OP tree rework, or maybe not the OP tree but just with the basic set of troops, ie the ones you get from recruiting big falcon patrols when your a falcon lord would even be fine??

Just sucks to have a major faction that’s unplayable, my favourite culture / lore / gear as well.

Edit: I just read you can change to falcon culture with 75 faction relation and 50 field Marshall relation. Is this true and which troops will you be able to recruit?

Read this: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,360179.0.html.
Specifically this: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,360179.msg8699144.html#msg8699144.

P. S. I agree with Leonion too.

Thanks, hardest on that list seems like the 500 honor. Any suggestions on how to farm honor other than the obvious releasing captured lords and random events?

 

[Dago Wolfrider]

Spoiler

I can't see any reasons to add additional custom nobles.
Current household guards fill this role perfectly.

Agreed.

Is there any chance of getting the Falcon added as a playable culture. OP tree rework, or maybe not the OP tree but just with the basic set of troops, ie the ones you get from recruiting big falcon patrols when your a falcon lord would even be fine??

Just sucks to have a major faction that’s unplayable, my favourite culture / lore / gear as well.

Edit: I just read you can change to falcon culture with 75 faction relation and 50 field Marshall relation. Is this true and which troops will you be able to recruit?

Read this: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,360179.0.html.
Specifically this: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,360179.msg8699144.html#msg8699144.

P. S. I agree with Leonion too.

Thanks, hardest on that list seems like the 500 honor. Any suggestions on how to farm honor other than the obvious releasing captured lords and random events?

                                You are welcome
In 0.9 paying a visit to the New Gods' priests in Maccan. Otherwise rescuing prisoner lords is a good way to farm honor and relation points. Doing quests for villages is another option.