Custom Troops Discussion

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Ulythane

Recruit
When I first got into 0.9 and I saw I couldn't give everyone best gear, I instantly thought "Crap, the devs are on to us."

But it makes sense because it gives you another reason to purchase Household Guards.

If you want units even more OP than what the Custom Mercs get you, then you need to work a bit harder for it. Go get land in multiple towns, get the gear you want them in, then tell your Constable that the time has come to conquer. :twisted:

Even though we can't go as crazy with custom troops in 0.9 like we could in previous versions, the limitations still give us the tools to counter darn near anything the game can throw at us and even allows us to express our character's unique personality. Especially if the default factions we are in can not.

It's thanks to my custom "Drachendame Ritterin" light cavalry that the Reich has a solid answer to those pesky horse archers of the Zann and Drahara who think themselves safe and out of the Drachenritter's/Dragoner's reach. And the honed great-swords and throwing axes of my Klingenfrau cut a clean path through the horses and men foolish enough to throw themselves upon my invincible wall of Elite Speerkampfers up in front.

 
BanditKing7x said:
The limitations seem really reasonable. I personally gear them to counter what my faction troops lack.

My horse archers are pretty op and they only rate as good/recommended. And of course they look pretty badass.

dqrrie.png
Very nice combinations you got there!

Ulythane said:
It's thanks to my custom "Drachendame Ritterin" light cavalry that the Reich has a solid answer to those pesky horse archers of the Zann and Drahara who think themselves safe and out of the Drachenritter's/Dragoner's reach. And the honed great-swords and throwing axes of my Klingenfrau cut a clean path through the horses and men foolish enough to throw themselves upon my invincible wall of Elite Speerkampfers up in front.
Nice! and thanks for the idea, I definitely need it for my current roleplay as minor faction king.
 

Yaver

Recruit
I get what they're doing with the  limitations, but c'mon these hired troops are essentially the equivalent of CKO in Pendor. Make the limits a toggleable option so that if the player want's the challenge they have it or if they want a Perisno Twilight Knight with a wage of 1500, they can have that too.
 

Sarin

Master Knight
Yaver said:
I get what they're doing with the  limitations, but c'mon these hired troops are essentially the equivalent of CKO in Pendor. Make the limits a toggleable option so that if the player want's the challenge they have it or if they want a Perisno Twilight Knight with a wage of 1500, they can have that too.

There are household guards you can obtain when you have a walled fief that fill that purpose. The hired troops are more an equivalent of custom troop tree.

But after messing around, I have to say the feature is balanced, with some minor adjustments, which I discussed with Leonion already. You have to make concessions sometimes, but for example heavily armoured hired sharpshooter with master's crossbow or mounted crossbowman on eclipse horse, heavy armour and dwarven crossbow are possible if you omit shield in favour of polearm+2H melee weapon combo are possible. Or even dressing hired foot knight in heaviest armour, with large shield, a good one-hand sword and dwarven crossbow.
 
About Household Guards,
can we have more specialized Household Guard specializations for late game goals / money sink?

Maybe we can build a Military Academy which needs 5 weeks and 200k aurums/week to built, then costs 50k aurums/week to maintain.

After that, additional options for Household Guard will appear, with higher cost of 15000 aurums to hire.
They retain the original stats of normal Household Guard, but with changes to certain stats. For example:
  • Household Sagittarius : PD 15 , HA 10, 550 Archery/Crossbow Proficiency
  • Household Ares : Ironflesh 13, PS 13, Shield 13, 500 One/TwoHanded Prof
  • Household Neptune : Ironflesh 15, PS 15, Shield 0, 200 One/TwoHanded, 600 Polearm Prof
  • Household Paragon : Ironflesh 12, PT 15, 600 Throwing Proficiency
  • Household Comet : Shield 15, Athletics 15, Riding 15, Pathfinding 10
You still need to provide these units with their gear as usual.
Note that the numbers above are fairly arbitrary and can be changed for balance.

For arguments of making them too strong, at late game you are usually strong enough to take down any faction, so why not make some variation of the OP-ness?
 
willyflare said:
About Household Guards,
can we have more specialized Household Guard specializations for late game goals / money sink?

Maybe we can build a Military Academy which needs 5 weeks and 200k aurums/week to built, then costs 50k aurums/week to maintain.

After that, additional options for Household Guard will appear, with higher cost of 15000 aurums to hire.
They retain the original stats of normal Household Guard, but with changes to certain stats. For example:
  • Household Sagittarius : PD 15 , HA 10, 550 Archery/Crossbow Proficiency
  • Household Ares : Ironflesh 13, PS 13, Shield 13, 500 One/TwoHanded Prof
  • Household Neptune : Ironflesh 15, PS 15, Shield 0, 200 One/TwoHanded, 600 Polearm Prof
  • Household Paragon : Ironflesh 12, PT 15, 600 Throwing Proficiency
  • Household Comet : Shield 15, Athletics 15, Riding 15, Pathfinding 10
You still need to provide these units with their gear as usual.
Note that the numbers above are fairly arbitrary and can be changed for balance.

For arguments of making them too strong, at late game you are usually strong enough to take down any faction, so why not make some variation of the OP-ness?

Love the idea of more customization. Would be awesome. I do appreciate that we have the system we have though.

Also,
The way I read it on the wiki, Arcanus Household troop has better stats than player ones. Not sure if this is still the case. Lvl60 10/9/9/9/10 on ours. Lvl 70 10/10/9/9/10 on arcanus. I get it, he's a bad ass but at 10k per, they should be on par with Arcane Defenders, yes? Also they have 10 riding, ours have 9, which is huge.

https://perisno.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_Defender

Maybe a quick fix would be a 5 level point allotment that the player can use to customize the top end of the household guard stats? Would put them at a nice juicy level 65.
 

Dago Wolfrider

Sergeant Knight
BanditKing7x said:
willyflare said:
About Household Guards,
can we have more specialized Household Guard specializations for late game goals / money sink?

Maybe we can build a Military Academy which needs 5 weeks and 200k aurums/week to built, then costs 50k aurums/week to maintain.

After that, additional options for Household Guard will appear, with higher cost of 15000 aurums to hire.
They retain the original stats of normal Household Guard, but with changes to certain stats. For example:
  • Household Sagittarius : PD 15 , HA 10, 550 Archery/Crossbow Proficiency
  • Household Ares : Ironflesh 13, PS 13, Shield 13, 500 One/TwoHanded Prof
  • Household Neptune : Ironflesh 15, PS 15, Shield 0, 200 One/TwoHanded, 600 Polearm Prof
  • Household Paragon : Ironflesh 12, PT 15, 600 Throwing Proficiency
  • Household Comet : Shield 15, Athletics 15, Riding 15, Pathfinding 10
You still need to provide these units with their gear as usual.
Note that the numbers above are fairly arbitrary and can be changed for balance.

For arguments of making them too strong, at late game you are usually strong enough to take down any faction, so why not make some variation of the OP-ness?

Love the idea of more customization. Would be awesome. I do appreciate that we have the system we have though.

Also,
The way I read it on the wiki, Arcanus Household troop has better stats than player ones. Not sure if this is still the case. Lvl60 10/9/9/9/10 on ours. Lvl 70 10/10/9/9/10 on arcanus. I get it, he's a bad ass but at 10k per, they should be on par with Arcane Defenders, yes? Also they have 10 riding, ours have 9, which is huge.

https://perisno.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_Defender

Maybe a quick fix would be a 5 level point allotment that the player can use to customize the top end of the household guard stats? Would put them at a nice juicy level 65.

1 kind household guards is enough for me, but I agree that they could be buffed a little.
 

azxcvbnm321

Sergeant at Arms
If the developers are going to buff household and hired mercs even more, then I hope they will compensate by increasing the garrison sizes and troop strengths of AI lords so that there can be at least some sort of challenge.  I understand that AI will never be as powerful of a force as an army of all household and hired mercs, but balance has shifted towards the player in the new 0.9 and the AI needs to be given more power.
 

Dago Wolfrider

Sergeant Knight
azxcvbnm321 said:
If the developers are going to buff household and hired mercs even more, then I hope they will compensate by increasing the garrison sizes and troop strengths of AI lords so that there can be at least some sort of challenge.  I understand that AI will never be as powerful of a force as an army of all household and hired mercs, but balance has shifted towards the player in the new 0.9 and the AI needs to be given more power.

Have you played Perisno 0.8? In that version you could give all that you wanted to your hired mercenaries, land owning and enterprises gave you more money, blunt weapons = 100% prisoners ( now is 50 killed / 50 k.u. ). Perisno is one of the mod with the biggest garrison sizes ( most mods have only 500/400 men in cities ).
 

ksha

Recruit
I think what we're missing in Perisno is the synergy between money sink + customization. Household guards are money sinks sure but the customisation is limited to gear. I think the best system would be a combination of PoP's CKO system + MitchPTI's custom troop trees mod.

The fact that you can just buy them up instantly and only have control over their gear doesn't make you feel as invested in them. It'd be great if we could further sink our money into training them up and customizing them further. And please, female household guards.
 

Dantelh

I think it would fit well. I'm not particularly fond of PoP's handling of custom knights, but with the Mercenary guild available the grind wouldn't be as boring.
 

RiftZM2003

Regular
WB
Leonion said:
Wulfee said:
Well I was hoping for a more mature and constructive approach to this, but seeing as this is how the mod responds to a system (That is somewhat broken even if you aren't going for the latest armor and weapons, or can be counter balanced using stones and cheap weapons for a gacha like unit with a lower cost) I'm at a loss for words honestly. And with other's just using the same counter argument of (They're just trying to get the op stuff) I guess there's no hope in progress regarding the custom mercenaries system. A shame, I loved perisno and it's difficulty and insane numbers of garrison. I know it's your mod, and you have the liberty to do whatever you want with it. I'm just voicing my opinion, and if not then at least a workaround for others regardless of their intentions. Anyway, thank you for your time.
Oh, you wanna talk about mature?
Let's talk about mature.
You know what is mature?
Coding is mature.
Whining like a pampered little girl all over the internet because people who spend their free time working on a mod you can play for free refuse to do as your highness wishes isn't mature.
Screaming at the top of your lungs for all the visitors of a supermarket to hear how you hate you daddy because he refuses to buy you a chupa chups (or posting negative review on moddb stating how you downvote the mod just because only one fully optional little feature was nerfed a little bit) isn't mature.
Projecting your own lack of understanding how the system works on the system stating that it's broken isn't mature.

Learn to code and make your own custom troop tree with blackjack, hookers and no limitations. That would be mature.

Wow...  LOL.

OK, first off, personally attacking people who voice their opinions about changes made to the mod is extremely childish.  This isn't the first time, either.  I've seen numerous posts where you're pretty rude to people (twice on this thread alone).  Second, one of the major downfalls of a lot of games is ignoring the playerbase.  If you implement a change and there's an overwhelming negative response to the change, then a roll-back should be considered.  I'm not saying there was an overwhelming negative response, but I'm just saying "in general" - but it's definitely been an area of contention (as this thread clearly illustrates).  Obviously, you can't please everyone with changes.  There will always be people who complain or don't like them.  You'll never please everyone, so you'll always have people who will say something negative.  So, in the future, you should try to be a bit more "professional" about it, and more understanding towards the people who play it.

Yeah, it's your mod, and you can do with it what you want.  That's fine.  There are a lot of us who appreciate the work you guys have put in on this mod, and it's a fantastic mod.  Honestly, I played Perisno far more than any other mod.  Personally, I stopped playing when the Hired Troops were nerfed, because that was one of my favorite things about this mod (and no, I didn't make them ridiculously OP).  I'm also a bit burnt out on M&B, too, so there's that...

I think I made a suggestion a while back (maybe?) about having the rules for Hired Troops selectable.  For example, if we wanted to play with the old Hired Troops rules, we could check a box, or keep the new rules (would be "by default" rules).  I don't know any coding, so I can't begin to imagine how difficult (or simple) that would be to implement...  But, it's just a suggestion.  =/
 

Dago Wolfrider

Sergeant Knight
October 21st 2018
"Mod creator doesn't take criticism and ultimately does what Dead Frontier 2 on steam started doing. Unfortunately I'll have to give this mod, which I used to love and play all the time,a 1/10 from the previous score of 9/10. Whether it be a game or mod, if you can't take criticism and at least converse on it, then you aren't going to do good in the long run.
-Arctic Wulfe"

He did not wait for Leonion's answer, did he? That's attacking. Moreover: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,380570.msg9049101.html#msg9049101 (I ran into it by chance). The meaning of this topic is: "discussing anything related to custom troops, be it MG mercs, household guards, their looks, their balance, their everything." The first post of this topic, written by Leonion in 2014. Now, the real question is
why don't people read before posting or asking questions that someone had already answered countless times?  :neutral: :roll: :iamamoron: (I am joking: I miss answering the same old questions about missing companions,... Now this forum is so silent :cry:)
 

Leonion

Master Knight
RiftZM2003 said:
OK, first off, personally attacking people who voice their opinions about changes made to the mod is extremely childish.
What is childish is thinking that your entitled whining can be called and "opinion", let alone "criticism".
There is difference between "Sir, if I may, I think your chapter on neural correlates of consciousness is incomplete and could be improved. There is this interesting recent research you didn't mention..." and "Dude, wallpapers in your house suck! I really hate the color! Change them!".
Or, to make an example less abstract, there is a difference between, say, posting 2 screenshots of Ingvar's horse archers with different equipment to illustrate that their "recommended" xbow values are unreasonable low (especially for mounted xbowmen who suck compared to mounted bowmen) and just whining "I can't give my custom troops all the best gear, the mod is unplayable, 0/10."
And, second, your "opinion" on custom troops mechanics (without knowing how it works and what reasons are behind every line of code and why everything was implemented this way and not some other way) is as much an opinion as an opinion of a redneck on a new telecommunication tower built next to his farm. "We fon't need your tefnolofgies 'ere! Them microwave us brains!".

RiftZM2003 said:
Second, one of the major downfalls of a lot of games is ignoring the playerbase. [...] you should try to be a bit more "professional" about it
It's not a commercial game, it's a mod.
And I've seen quite a few great mods that were made by authors who fully ignored the playerbase and all their little wishes for quite a long time (if not always). Because one person (or a team of like-minded people) can often see the big picture better than the players, among whom one want this, another wants that, and in the end the mod turns into a junkyard.
PoP is a great example of such "closed" mod, if we talk about Warband mods.
(And I'm not saying I have this visionary capacity or that Perisno is such a mod, just pointing out I don't have to listen to the likes of you, who don't provide any constructive feedback  - with screenshots, numbers, test results, calculations, - but just complain about what they personally don't like).
And that is my "professional" attitude. To attentively listen to people who got numbers (and other objective evidence) to back up their arguments and ignore everyone who just voices their personal "I want this, I don't like that, redo it". 
 

RiftZM2003

Regular
WB
Expected reply.  No humility or humbleness whatsoever.  Just more smug and arrogant behavior from someone with the mentality of an 8-year old who can't handle criticism, and views everyone who doesn't have something positive to say as a whiner or entitled brat.  I guess I'll give Perisno the middle finger, just as you've given the playerbase of Perisno the finger.  Hopefully, people get sick of your attitude and just stop playing altogether.  Maybe then you'll be a bit more humble.
 
RiftZM2003 said:
Expected reply.  No humility or humbleness whatsoever.  Just more smug and arrogant behavior from someone with the mentality of an 8-year old who can't handle criticism, and views everyone who doesn't have something positive to say as a whiner or entitled brat.  I guess I'll give Perisno the middle finger, just as you've given the playerbase of Perisno the finger.  Hopefully, people get sick of your attitude and just stop playing altogether.  Maybe then you'll be a bit more humble.

Now that's a little uncalled for. He's done a lot of things trying to balance the custom mercenaries because the playerbase kept complaining too OP and made everything too easy, so he gave it restrictions then the playerbase complained about the restrictions on (x type) equipment on (y type) unit, he even extended the tree to give players more freedom on choices rather than limiting them to the regular infantry-cavalry-archer types. And further more, he's been active at trying to fix bugs and answer the playerbase' questions and requests. So a little understanding for the guy and his hard work would be great. He's not God who can answer all our requests and he has his own ideals he wants to keep for their mod. We don't own the mod, we don't pay him to make us the mod. It's not easy what he does so give him a break will you.
 

RiftZM2003

Regular
WB
Tiger of the East said:
RiftZM2003 said:
Expected reply.  No humility or humbleness whatsoever.  Just more smug and arrogant behavior from someone with the mentality of an 8-year old who can't handle criticism, and views everyone who doesn't have something positive to say as a whiner or entitled brat.  I guess I'll give Perisno the middle finger, just as you've given the playerbase of Perisno the finger.  Hopefully, people get sick of your attitude and just stop playing altogether.  Maybe then you'll be a bit more humble.

Now that's a little uncalled for. He's done a lot of things trying to balance the custom mercenaries because the playerbase kept complaining too OP and made everything too easy, so he gave it restrictions then the playerbase complained about the restrictions on (x type) equipment on (y type) unit, he even extended the tree to give players more freedom on choices rather than limiting them to the regular infantry-cavalry-archer types. And further more, he's been active at trying to fix bugs and answer the playerbase' questions and requests. So a little understanding for the guy and his hard work would be great. He's not God who can answer all our requests and he has his own ideals he wants to keep for their mod. We don't own the mod, we don't pay him to make us the mod. It's not easy what he does so give him a break will you.

All totally irrelevant, and most certainly well deserved.  The Hired Troops are an afterthought.  The problem is anyone who disagrees with what he says or does is labeled as a whiner and entitled, and he personally attacks them in his replies to their questions or opinions, or he just outright ridicules them (God forbid they have a question that sounds dumb).  Rather than being open to criticism or suggestions, it's a dictatorship with "F*** you.  I'll do what I want", clearly illustrated by this gem of a post:

I created the custom troops.
I balanced the custom troops.
I polished the custom troops.
And they will be in the game the way I see them, like it or not.


The fact that this is just a mod and not a game or company only means that he has no limitations with his attitude and the way he treats people.  He has no oversight.  No one is going to come along and tell him to knock it off, because nothing is going to happen if he doesn't.  If this were a game, the players would be enraged and the game would barely sell.  If it were a company, he'd be fired for his horrendous people skills.  So, he can rage, attack, and belittle people all he wants because there's nothing anyone can do about it.

In all honestly, I'm kind of shocked no one has said anything earlier.  As I said, this isn't his first little outburst or tantrum on the forums.  Since he mentioned PoP, I went through their forum threads and not once did I come across any threads or posts with the creators or developers attacking, insulting, or belittling their playerbase (though they do have a "Suggestions and Feedback" thread).  In fact, there were lots of posts with "Thanks for your feedback".  Pick almost any thread Leonion has posted on, and you've got a good chance of finding at least one.

In any case, like I said...  Dealing with changes are one thing.  You either like them or don't, and you continue to play on through it all or you don't.  If you don't like changes that were made, the players should be able to voice their concerns freely without being chastised by the guy "made it all".  If you don't see anything wrong with the way he treats people who play his mod, then you're part of the problem as well.  Maybe if you guys grew a pair, instead of trying to be balls deep in "the friend zone" with Leonion (like it's going to benefit you at all, anyway), then more of you would say something to him about his arrogant outbursts.  Maybe, just maybe...  -=gasp=-  ...He'll stop.  That brings up one more thing; Where are the other dudes who work on this mod?  Are they OK with how he treats people on the forums?  Do they find childish tempertantrums on the forums because of his "how dare someone disagree with me" persona, acceptable?

I also missed this from his previous post:

(And I'm not saying I have this visionary capacity or that Perisno is such a mod, just pointing out I don't have to listen to the likes of you, who don't provide any constructive feedback  - with screenshots, numbers, test results, calculations, - but just complain about what they personally don't like).  ---  This is addressed directly to someone who has played and posted on the Perisno forums for years and never once complained about a single thing, ever, except the Hired Troops change.  I've also provided positive feedback on a lot of changes that were made, though not in the capacity which is apparently acceptable to him (i.e., not the way he wants it, so -=middle finger=- you don't matter).
 

Leonion

Master Knight
RiftZM2003 said:
No humility or humbleness whatsoever.
Lol, says you.

RiftZM2003 said:
criticism
Your words are not constructive criticism. They're empty babbling.
Give me a single quote of yours where you posted detailed&deliberate criticism, with objective calculations/numbers/test results to back up your claims.

RiftZM2003 said:
you've given the playerbase of Perisno the finger
I never did. Only you deserve this honor. And a couple more inadequate jerks. But overall the community is great and so is my attitude to it.

RiftZM2003 said:
he problem is anyone who disagrees with what he says or does is labeled as a whiner and entitled, and he personally attacks them in his replies to their questions or opinions, or he just outright ridicules them (God forbid they have a question that sounds dumb).  Rather than being open to criticism or suggestions, it's a dictatorship with "F*** you.
Utter nonsense and slander.
You're projecting your own situation to the world around you, but it's simply not true.
You're just one little jerk with **** attitude, and you get what you give. Most people, however, don't act like assholes.
And I dare you (or anyone who reads this) to find at least one case when I offended someone who criticized my work constructively (politely & on point). Just one. One tiny little case when somebody just provided some deliberate feedback without any aggression ("it sucks", "this balance is $hit" etc.), and I suddenly went mad and belittled/insulted this person.
Do so. After all, as you say, almost any thread where I commented has at least some insults. Surely, it will be an easy task.
Just one proof of your words. Just one.


P.S. Oh, I didn't notice there are two of you.
When I was replying before, I thought you were the same guy who started the whining.
But, well, you deserve each other.
 

Dago Wolfrider

Sergeant Knight
Leonion said:
RiftZM2003 said:
No humility or humbleness whatsoever.
Lol, says you.

RiftZM2003 said:
criticism
Your words are not constructive criticism. They're empty babbling.
Give me a single quote of yours where you posted detailed&deliberate criticism, with objective calculations/numbers/test results to back up your claims.

RiftZM2003 said:
you've given the playerbase of Perisno the finger
I never did. Only you deserve this honor. And a couple more inadequate jerks. But overall the community is great and so is my attitude to it.

RiftZM2003 said:
he problem is anyone who disagrees with what he says or does is labeled as a whiner and entitled, and he personally attacks them in his replies to their questions or opinions, or he just outright ridicules them (God forbid they have a question that sounds dumb).  Rather than being open to criticism or suggestions, it's a dictatorship with "F*** you.
Utter nonsense and slander.
You're projecting your own situation to the world around you, but it's simply not true.
You're just one little jerk with **** attitude, and you get what you give. Most people, however, don't act like assholes.
And I dare you (or anyone who reads this) to find at least one case when I offended someone who criticized my work constructively (politely & on point). Just one. One tiny little case when somebody just provided some deliberate feedback without any aggression ("it sucks", "this balance is $hit" etc.), and I suddenly went mad and belittled/insulted this person.
Do so. After all, as you say, almost any thread where I commented has at least some insults. Surely, it will be an easy task.
Just one proof of your words. Just one.


P.S. Oh, I didn't notice there are two of you.
When I was replying before, I thought you were the same guy who started the whining.
But, well, you deserve each other.
.

I have read all posts since September 2018 and many older than those, but I could accidentally only find a praise: the one I quoted in my previous post. So, if someone is really going to search for that you had better check posts previous to that date. ?️ I give up (almost without even starting) ?️
 
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