cultural recruitment

[Brownboot]

I would really like some sort of scouting reports/preview/descriptor tags for units in the future, especially under the WFAS recruiting system.  I spent a lot of time not knowing what weapons/troops were and how they should function on the battle field, which didn't feel very in character or fun.

Looking at a given units character sheet is very helpful, but also very information dense.  And its not accessible at the time of purchase from a town. 

Some shorthand tags might be the easiest and most user friendly way to find out a little info about a unit from the quest log menus, but being able to get there from the buy screen would be best.  The same applies to custom weapon/armor purchases.


Specifically regarding cultural recruitment I think it would be acceptable to send militia veterans to a commander/academy and for a fee (and a few days) have them trained.  A portion of these could graduate to a few different mid-level troop types, the remainder could become "elite" militiamen.  This doesn't radically alter the troop training landscape but gives you a chance to spend a little more time to milk a few more quality troops out of the fodder.

 

[nox]

I call that 'remorting' and as yet I have not come up with a particularly brilliant way to do that, but I want it.

I'm thinking an interface like the slave trader that you give troops to to get retrained into your own cultural focus?  Lots of unknowns there.

 

[wannyboy]

The thing i like most about citys is that you get instantly ready troops, but with the trees i love to level them up and see my army raise...

 

[stylepoints99]

The problem is right now it makes a lot more sense to hire mercenaries than faction soldiers. You have a few choices.

1. Hire faction troops.

The problem with this is how slow it takes to build an army. If you are actually fighting often, you will end up losing soldiers as quickly as you train them. Not to mention many of the soldiers are throwaway militia.

2.Hire mercenaries.

This is much better than hiring your faction troops. Money is easy to make, and rather than having a bunch of naked militia with spears, you can hire hundreds of musketmen in plate armor if you want. They train up to veteran/elite quickly enough, and while much more expensive, and a little less effective than the highest tier faction troops, the speed and quantity of these armies is just completely superior to faction troops. I've seriously been hoarding my reiters in a town since I could train them. I'm at about day 150 and I STILL don't have enough reiters/cuirassiers to make a full army. I'm scared to actually use them in battles because of how hard they are to replace.

Right now faction troops are much cooler, but take far too long to acquire in meaningful numbers. There are several ways to fix this. The simplest of course would be to let you recruit 20 or so soldiers at a time, the others would be to let you use villagers in some way, or to let you "invest" in recruiting somehow.

 

[nox]

We've made some changes and fixed some things.  It's working better, but the mercenary system is still chafing me. 

I'm eager to see what folks think of the changes.  Hopefully we can get this next build out soon (tm). 

At least lords you've captured and released won't be accusing you of running from battle, or telling you that you're a jerk for releasing themselves and whining about the widows and orphans they themselves are apparently leaving behind (?).

 

[xenoargh]

What I'd really like to see is for it to model the historical realities a lot more.

1.  Instead of regional troops, just make generic recruits available.  If you try recruiting in an area that's hostile to you, you don't get your quota filled very quickly.  The larger the number, the higher the amount of money it should take, not just linear but with a bit of a curve; larger numbers means more logistical problems, more trainers must be provided to create cadres, etc.

2.  How they get developed is up to the player; how long it takes depends on what the player wants to do with them.  Basic infantry barely good enough to stop bullets with might take a few game days, really elite cavalry might take a month.

In terms of how the feature would work, if, say, you want to teach 100 men how to be basic infantry, you'd pay a local recruiter, or pay a small amount of graft to the local villages to find recruits.  Instead of hiring them straight in, like Warband, I think it would be much cooler if you went to the Village Elder, paid them 100 dinars, said how many troops you were looking for, then after some time you'd have the troops show up for training.  The more villages you contacted, the faster the quota would be met; with recruiters, you could give them a bonus per head, and the higher you set the bonus, the faster the quota would be met.

Then they're in training; instead of putting them into your band, put them into the game as variables, shown in a menu.  You have to wait for them to be trained before they'll show up in your band.  Depending on what you want to train them to be, they may take days or even game weeks to show up; realistically, it should take months to years, but it's a game; I wouldn't make it that literal, heh.  Factor in Trainer, in terms of time; your character isn't there, training them, but Trainer would represent your ability to give clear instructions to your employees and pick the best trainers.

When they're trained, trigger a Dialogue where the player can choose to take them into his / her band, or have them put into the garrison of one or more locations. That's probably the hardest part of writing it, from a gamecode perspective.


This would be a great new feature.  It would mean that you could pay a recruiter to find the troops, but it would cost more, or go from village to village, which would be cheaper but take up time.  Then having them auto-train outside your warband would save a lot of messing around, and let people play the game a lot more strategically; perhaps they'd fight a series of holding actions, knowing that a unit of heavy pike-and-shot are coming in a couple of weeks, or they could start a major offensive, knowing that their investment of 50,000 would result in hundreds of mediocre-but-plentiful garrison troops in a game week, allowing them to guard the castles they're planning to take. 

In short, make the Warband system a lot less annoying and micro-heavy, and get rid of so much pointless roaming around.  This was a period when raising armies was perfectly practical, because firearms training and learning the basics of being an infantryman are a lot faster and much easier than creating a knight, and inventions like the printing press and the rise of literacy made it possible for messengers to contact distant villages and round up men willing to follow the drum.

As for "a serf should always be a serf", handle it by allowing for recruitment of upper-class troops, particularly cavalry, from the Fortresses, giving them a similar role.  It's perfectly reasonable that certain types of troops can only be recruited from the upper classes of this period, but the process should be about the same, just with a different cost structure.  I wouldn't go very far, though, with missile troops; if anything, the elites should be commoners, not the upper classes, when talking about this period. 

Remember, anybody can use a gun, and the commoners, not having silly notions about the glory of charges and the honor of cold steel... probably made the best line infantry.  This was a period where the mounted knight was almost dead, due to technological changes; commoners were all of a sudden a major factor on the battlefields, and the game should reflect that.

 

[Assassin123]

The Mercs system is very good, but should remove the town recruitment feature, because those troops should get upgrade from the villages, I liked the old recruitment system so please bring back

 

[Goldeye]

The other night when I was playing a Warband -> floris expanded marathon (and also tabbing out every now and then to read the forums) I got an idea of what I thought would be awesome. Combine both leveling systems.

For example using Swadians:

隐藏

You go to a village and you recruit a Swadian Recruit. As this recruit gains levels he becomes Swadian Recruit (experienced/veteran/etc). This is for free when he levels. This will only increase his stats, this will not change his gear/weapons/etc.

Now you can go to towns or garrisons or something and pay to increase their gear. So for X denars that Swadian Recruit becomes  Swadian Militia. This Swadian Militia has better gear/weapons/etc.

It would probably need to do some testing to decide prices, balancing, leveling. Would a Swadian recruit (experienced) become a Swadian Militia (experienced)? Or maybe there could be some design factors here too. Like the stats carry over, so a Swadian Recruit (rookie) and a Swadian Recruit (veteran) will each become different stated Swadian Militia.

This will make godly armies for someone who takes the time to level each unit up before upgrading them into a stronger unit. Or if you pay money right away you can get that strong geared weak stated army quick. etc etc

i like your idea but add with the mercs improvement because somehow makes me feel that they weren't right with warband but yeah overall like your idea

 

[original]

The Mercs system is very good, but should remove the town recruitment feature, because those troops should get upgrade from the villages, I liked the old recruitment system so please bring back

Hmmm I don't know man, I really like the idea that villagers can only reach militia. It makes sense.

How about a compromise? Villagers can only upgrade to higher unit types if they have gained enough combat experience.

I suggested that the only way to go from veteran -> elite, is through combat experience, not from the trainer skill. If a villager can beat back a well-trained army in combat, that villager wouldn't be just a villager anymore. So only villagers (elite) can upgrade to a higher level unit.

 

[Cerlin]

The problem is now that I think the game doesn't tell the difference between battle experience and training experience, let alone "elite" and "regular" enemy experience.  This all seems very complicated.  I think if a peasant survives combat at all without dying and/or running they deserve experience. 

Also I don't feel that it is that easy to become an elite soldier.  I know it is "only a game" and "should be focused on fun" but no one can convince me that a peasant militia can become a super troop in the span of the game, it is just too short.  Being a Hussar or a Dragoon or a German infantryman is a lifelong vocation, not something you decide to do one day and become good at in a matter of weeks. 

With the conscript armies that came in the century after this game, quality and training mattered for less because of mass musket fire, but it still mattered.  No one could argue that a conscript was as good as a fully trained line infantryman or grenadier. 

I would say when you are fighting on the scale of this game, with armies in the hundreds and not the hundred thousands, quality and training will win out over mass militia and peasant armies.

 

[nox]

The Mercs system is very good, but should remove the town recruitment feature, because those troops should get upgrade from the villages, I liked the old recruitment system so please bring back

Hmmm I don't know man, I really like the idea that villagers can only reach militia. It makes sense.

How about a compromise? Villagers can only upgrade to higher unit types if they have gained enough combat experience.

I suggested that the only way to go from veteran -> elite, is through combat experience, not from the trainer skill. If a villager can beat back a well-trained army in combat, that villager wouldn't be just a villager anymore. So only villagers (elite) can upgrade to a higher level unit.

yeah, this is where I think I want to go with it.

Villager/bandit/etc. -> irregulars -> irregular veteran -> irregular elite. 

irregular veteran+ -> regular recruit

regular recruit -> veteran recruit

any regular military -> regular recruit -> veteran recruit

any veteran military -> veteran recruit

veteran recruit -> infantry regular / cavalry regular / musketeer regular (i.e. any factional base unit depending on the options open to the player)

this looks more complicated than it really is, just the idea is I want a unified way to take -any- troop and create regular military from them with sufficient training and care.

Irregular troops will have worse gear, less orderly equipment but since they are self-equipped will cost very little to equip.  They would typically have cloth or leather, axe and musket or bow.  They are generalist troops with low to moderate skills and lower morale than regular troops.

regular recruits would also be generalist troops but have regular gear and much better morale as they approach veteran status. 

This isn't fully thought out, just tossing ideas out. 

 

[lotsofpaper]

So at the end of an experience tree for a specific unit, you would have the choice of choosing "elite" of what they already are, or upgrading them to a different unit type? Sounds brilliant!

 

[original]

The Mercs system is very good, but should remove the town recruitment feature, because those troops should get upgrade from the villages, I liked the old recruitment system so please bring back

Hmmm I don't know man, I really like the idea that villagers can only reach militia. It makes sense.

How about a compromise? Villagers can only upgrade to higher unit types if they have gained enough combat experience.

I suggested that the only way to go from veteran -> elite, is through combat experience, not from the trainer skill. If a villager can beat back a well-trained army in combat, that villager wouldn't be just a villager anymore. So only villagers (elite) can upgrade to a higher level unit.

yeah, this is where I think I want to go with it.

Villager/bandit/etc. -> irregulars -> irregular veteran -> irregular elite. 

irregular veteran+ -> regular recruit

regular recruit -> veteran recruit

any regular military -> regular recruit -> veteran recruit

any veteran military -> veteran recruit

veteran recruit -> infantry regular / cavalry regular / musketeer regular (i.e. any factional base unit depending on the options open to the player)

this looks more complicated than it really is, just the idea is I want a unified way to take -any- troop and create regular military from them with sufficient training and care.

Irregular troops will have worse gear, less orderly equipment but since they are self-equipped will cost very little to equip.  They would typically have cloth or leather, axe and musket or bow.  They are generalist troops with low to moderate skills and lower morale than regular troops.

regular recruits would also be generalist troops but have regular gear and much better morale as they approach veteran status. 

This isn't fully thought out, just tossing ideas out.

Well I prefer that only irregular elite (villagers who have at least gotten to elite through combat) can upgrade to more advanced troops, but I think your solution is a good compromise.

But villagers should be recruitable even if you don't join any factions, so that the player can take the long route to getting a good army, instead of relying on mercenaries where the ones from taverns can't level, and the ones from camps are really expensive.

There needs to be some pricing adjustment. Maybe make it so that recruiting veteran recruits from cities will cost more upfront.
So if you take the long route of training villagers to veteran recruits, the advantage would be it's cheaper.

And what are your plans for mercenaries from taverns and camps? Can mercenaries from taverns level?
Will mercenaries from camps still have the privilege of being the only troops with customizable equipment?

 

[nox]

The customizable equipment is a neat feature with dubious gameplay merit imo and as it sits is very, very exploitable.  I know people are fond of the feature, but really I think we would be fine with a poor and good version of each type of mercenary.

I want all troops to go from green -> veteran, and I don't think that should require a change in the cost to maintain them.

Maintenance costs for troops should be a result of their equipment.  Cavalry being at the top of that list, followed by steel armor, good firearms and fine gear.

for example, the cost to upgrade a hired mercenary from normal to experienced should be next to nothing, and not increase their maintenance cost.  Upgrading a troop from a regular recruit to a cavalry recruit however should cost the price of a horse and an upkeep that factors that in.

That said, I want to broaden the recruitment options in logical ways - such as permitting recruitment from bandits, conscription, and making ALL recruits act similarly in how they advance and what they advance to. 

 

[xenoargh]

I'd say that it's important to remember what a big difference skills make, honestly.

For example, guys with crap armor and medium-decent firearms are totally different animals at Crossbow 100 vs. 225. 

See the way it was structured in Blood and Steel; there, when you get Elites, they're a real cut above.  I also have Experts, which are a big jump in terms of cost, but often have abilities way out in front of everything else, whether that means heavy armor or accuracy / rate of fire.

I don't think what you're proposing will work as well, though, nox, as what I wrote out.  Reason being that with all those branches, it'll be very hard to avoid newbie-traps and balance problems. 

It's better to just let players cherry-pick to a great degree.  Then if people find X OP or UP for cost, it's fairly simple to address their costs to compensate.  This has been a strategy for balance shakedown that's worked extremely well for Blood and Steel, where I have a really ridiculous number of troop types that are all very unique.  Keep in mind that this is a game, first, and vaguely history second; it's un-fun to have to micro-manage troop training in the first place, and it'll be very, very un-fun if players invest hours getting a group to an Elite status, only to find out that they're a waste of time. 

It's better, imo, to have each sub-category go straight up, and avoid branching unless it's very, very carefully thought out.  Note that in Blood and Steel, the only branching I do at all is in the Merc male / female trees; in both cases, these troops have been very carefully modeled to deliver real value in their price brackets and avoid newbie traps the whole way.  I can't emphasize enough that Warband's branches weren't well designed, balance-wise, and had a lot of dead ends or things that made zero sense, like turning Swadian fodder into the second-best knights, or the Nord Huscarl arrangement, where they got shafted a lot along with the way but suddenly had brilliant troops... of a single type.  In Blood and Steel, I gave each Faction thematic choices they could work with, and each one develops into troops that are actually worth using, even at the high end of play.  It's not perfectly balanced across all of the Factions, but it's been kept fairly close, giving each Faction unique and interesting troops that make them special, with a broad variety of mercs that fill special roles or can be used to fill holes with.  I really don't like how in WFaS, the mercs basically are cover-everything troops; instead, like real mercenaries, they should be specialized, imo, or general-purpose but fairly lame vs. going the same route with Faction troops.

 

[nox]

We're of a same mind I think.  I also disagree with a lot of branching, especially when some brilliant troop is hidden randomly behind various worthless units.

If you got some other impression, then I presented it wrong. 

My evolutions by the way of green -> veteran -> elite really treat those as the same troop more or less.  somewhat better skills, somewhat better morale but I never, ever want to have something that fundamentally shifts paradigm outside of what is visible to the player when they make a decision.

Hence, as you are saying - I like troop trees to be shallow but with 'veteran' stages.

 

[Queue]

I would like it back in the game, cause sometimes you don't have the cash for mercenaries.

 

[xenoargh]

Oh, OK, so you're going to keep it a relatively broad system, where each can do a path?  Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you wrote.  Mainly I just wanted to say that I didn't like the branching system very much; sometimes it's OK, where it really delivers something worth having, but I honestly think it's better when it's a "path" not a "tree" most of the time; it gives players predictable expectations about what the troops will be useful for down the road, and you don't have to do absurd things like try to make the Sarranids and Nords love you so that you can have Mamluks and Huscarls

 

[lotsofpaper]

You know, you could put troop trees in the camp menu.. custom commander did it I believe, and it makes choosing the path for your upgrades MUCH easier to understand. Otherwise I would be upgrading to "vaegir veterans" in warband, get horsemen and kick myself.

 

[wannyboy]

Recruiting from fortresses is nice the way it is now but the villager troop line shouod be slightly longer so that you can get medium tier troops out of your peasants