Crush-Through: A Cautionary Tale About How to Kill Your Game's Multiplayer

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Knight at Arms
The Bannerlord playerbase has been decreasing for months now. There are a number of factors behind this. Among the causes are unfinished game modes, bugs/crashes, busted gameplay mechanics, a lack of balance in Skirmish and Captain Mode, no battle mode, lack of loadout customization, lack of maps, and no custom servers.

All of these factors contributed to players leaving MP. With that being said, there was still a small holdout of players who continued playing, optimistic about the game getting better. They understood that eventually the bugs would get fixed, the combat mechanics would improve, we'd see better balance in the existing game modes and maybe even some new maps. In time, even custom servers would arrive.

But then, something happened that seemed to push the community over the edge. It was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. It was the addition of crush-through.

In July of 2020, the upcoming 1.5x patch advertised the ability for all 2H weapons to crush through their opponent's blocks. There was a lot of head-scratching among the playerbase, because this was a mechanic no one had asked for. There was speculation and confusion on how exactly crush-through was going to be implemented.

When I heard about the plan to make 2H have crush-through capabilities, I made a post on the forums on July 27th 2020.


The post was slightly tongue-in-cheek, and it was mostly me being a smartass.

Here is what I said:

"Two-handed weapons can now crush through a block on overswing attacks"


So, now I can take out my hammer as Battanian Savage, hold s key, spam overheads, and cruise to 100 kills on TDM while playing on auto-pilot, right?



P.S. -does this crush through work with just the hammers? Or is all two-handers? I'd love to hold s key with my menavlion too.

As you can see, I used a direct quote from the patch notes on the new crush-through mechanic, then I made a troll-ish comment about s keying and spamming overheads. Then, to conclude, I made another sarcastic remark about being able to crush through with my menavlion. To be completely forthcoming, I was just being a total smartass and posting a quasi-Worst-Case-Scenario regarding the new crush-through patch, especially with the last comment -because the mere thought of menavlions being able to crush through was inconceivable to me at the time.

I mean, why would one of the longest weapons, with great power and deceptive speed, wielded by one of the fastest moving inf classes, actually be allotted the crush-through ability? Wouldn't that be a little broken?

Well they did. Along with practically every other 2H weapon -including swords. You would think only a short and slow weapon would have the crush-through trait - purely for game balance purposes. No, it was every weapon. Some of these weapons were really fast. Some were really long. Some were both.

It was a broken, busted mechanic that had infiltrated the game. It removed skill, and replaced it with RNG and cheese. The new patch -instead of promoting the development of skill and ability, lowered the skill ceiling and made the delicate combat ecosystem more of a crapshoot than ever before.

Players were immediately turned off by the controversial new crush-through mechanic. If you were the one getting crushed through, it made you feel frustrated. If you were the one doing the crush-through, it made you feel dirty on the inside. No one won.



The addition of crush-through had immediate impacts on the duel server, since abusing crush-through with 2H is an obvious faux paus. Thus, there's now a whole class of weaponry -and entire playstyle, that went out of vogue.

Siege and TDM were affected as well. It's no fun to get repeatedly killed by the same player abusing overheads time and time again. These game modes already had their issues with friendly-fire, bugs, crashes, and overall balance. Now crush-through was another issue added to the pile.

Then we come to Skirmish.

It bears mentioning that one of the reasons crush-through was implemented was because of the lack of 2H in competitive Skirmish play. A decade of competitive Warband saw sword and board reign supreme in the inf department, with 2H being a novelty at best. The devs wanted to make 2H more viable.in competitive, and thus they added a new mechanic.

I actually applaud this way of thinking. The devs wanted to change up the meta somewhat and add variety to the gameplay. It's admirable and forward thinking -generally a good thing.

The problem was, instead of addressing the issues that discouraged 2H use (tweak/adjust OP throwables and ranged class capabilities, increase 2H effectiveness against shields, increase shock class armor, give shock classes access to viable shields), they created a new mechanic that complicated the game further. Hmm, where have I heard this before???

Instead of simplifying, the devs added yet another mechanic, multiplying the combat issues Bannerlord currently faces.

Even worse, the new mechanic they added was -as mentioned earlier, dominated by RNG, gimmicky/cheesy, and generally looked upon unfavorably.


As to crush-through's impact on Skirmish play, well, it's hard to say.

Coming from an NA perspective, there hasn't been a Skirmish tournament since NABB (June-July 2020). In the time since, we've only had pickups and half-hearted clan scrims. Not long after the crush-through patches came out, many teams and clans started becoming inactive/left the game entirely. I see 2H used in scrims/pickups occasionally -with mixed results. That being said, they still get picked by archers or pincushioned by pilas/javelins.

What is safe to say is 2H haven't become any team's normal loadout or meta.


So crush-through as a whole has failed in its strategic goals. It did not change the competitive meta. Sword-and-board is still the mainstay for inf players. The collateral damage caused by crush-through has been felt most keenly in Duel, Siege, and TDM. All of these game modes have far less players now than they did in the spring/summer.

Now there's no way to ever know, but I hypothesize that crush-through was the final slap in the face that pushed players to leave Bannerlord. The community was on shaky legs, and morale was perilously low, and then crush-through was dropped on them and, well, crushed them.


Go back up to the quote I posted and read it. My ****post was prophetic, my fears were accurately predicted, and my cynicism was vindicated, but I feel no satisfaction or catharsis. I do not feel like a Nostradamus, I do not feel good about being right. I wish I was wrong. Because now barely any plays Bannerlord.

And those sentiments I expressed on July 27th were not unique to myself; I was merely echoing the general attitude of the community regarding their fears about adding crush-through. The playerbase as a whole predicted this, and still the MP team went forward with adding it, and on December 17th, 2020, we still have crush through.

I have heard that upcoming patches will reduce/remove crush-though for most weapons. This is a good thing. This will make Bannerlord better.

But I fear the damage has already been done.
 
What I can report from EU is that most of the teams adapted to it and employ it. Shocks are main priority of archers and throwing with high priority of removing them from the battlefield before they can deal excess amounts of damage. Also you'll try to 2v1 Shocks as quickly as possible since that shuts them down as well. It's annoying the way it is designed but it could be balanced if adressed in a very careful way with frequent patches until the thing has been dealt with. Well, that's something TW won't do or can't do with the limited amount of resources spent on MP. So it's better to remove it when the patch finally drops.

In conclusion I would say that even though the menav is a meme, the voulge is more dangerous shock weapon there is since menav infantry can become less dangerous if pushed.

I guess what killed NA is not the crushthrough, that was just the last blow, it's rather that there has been no consecutive hosting of tournaments (BEAST-series is now in 3rd iteration and will most likely have a fourth one!) and the abysmal ****ty servers you're getting.

I don't see shock infantry vanishing with 1.5.5 since - if properly employed and covered - their value in a group fight is enormous. It will probably stay meta as long as the restriction on archers isn't lifted in EU and even then it might not be 'enough' to remove them from the battlefield.
 
I have heard that upcoming patches will reduce/remove crush-though for most weapons. This is a good thing. This will make Bannerlord better.
Can you link, haven't seen anything

Also, my personal take is that crush trough should apply to all weapons, but it should only happen when a certain force (mass x acceleration) threshold is met by the strike (because when riding horses the force is much greater to the point all weapons should at some point perform crush through).
The threshold would also increase for better gear and skill.
To fix crush through, a way to the player deny the damage should be provided based on skill, by matching the timing of the strike and performing a perfect block the damage to the player would be denied. It would also make sense to have damage increase or decrease according to the HP and quality of a shield, for example.
This would fix the damn issue, imo.
 
Also, my personal take is that crush trough should apply to all weapons, but it should only happen when a certain force (mass x acceleration) threshold is met by the strike (because when riding horses the force is much greater to the point all weapons should at some point perform crush through).
The threshold would also increase for better gear and skill.
To fix crush through, a way to the player deny the damage should be provided based on skill, by matching the timing of the strike and performing a perfect block the damage to the player would be denied. It would also make sense to have damage increase or decrease according to the HP and quality of a shield, for example.
This would fix the damn issue, imo.
More crushthrough? More meme? More mechanics with difficult, intransparent and/or impossible counterplay? Couchlances destroying everything?
Please. Just no. If anything, then less crushthrough. I remember lances crushing through blocks before it was disabled.
Perfect blocks are not protecting you with these ****ty servers we have right now. For NA it would be worse than for Europe.
 
Damn that was a good read. So true, and very well written. I especially relate to that dirty ole feeling you get when you've crushed through someone especially if it was a good fight beforehand...

I feel like this was the nail in the coffin for OCE too, which was starting to dwindle in players regardless, but this patch dropped and then maybe a week later you're lucky to see a single person on the server. It's still dead to this day.
 
Well worded. I was one of the players who quit Bannerlord because of this change and I'm mostly a siege/tdm/duel player, so your guess was right on the money. I'm gonna come back once 1.5.5 gets moved to stable branch, but it is a disaster that we've had to wait 5 months for this change.The only reason I've kept up with the development is because I was very optimistic and I don't think that applies to the other players who left because of crushthrough nor will we see them in multiplayer again.
 
They just need to make 1.5.5 main and that will fix it, assuming TW doesn't decide to do the same thing they did with throwing weapons which was nerf and then buff them again. Crush through as an idea and execution is too different. Crush through didn't add any skill to the game only cheese so it's good if it's removed from most 2h weapons except the blunts (which are relatively short 2h weapons).
 
I believe they've gone a step further and said it should never really happen except in rare cases such as if someone jumps from a wall and strikes down on your block mid-fall. Something that 99.9% of us will never experience once in our entire game time. Sounds cool as **** though, I can understand why they decided to work on this rather than something dumb like G-steals or packet loss.

Sadly, I have typed "Sorry about the crush through" too many times.

Just a quick courtesy crouch usually does the trick :razz:
 
Can you show us a video that shows how bad crushtrough is?

7Y4U0.jpg
 
What I can report from EU is that most of the teams adapted to it and employ it. Shocks are main priority of archers and throwing with high priority of removing them from the battlefield before they can deal excess amounts of damage. Also you'll try to 2v1 Shocks as quickly as possible since that shuts them down as well. It's annoying the way it is designed but it could be balanced if adressed in a very careful way with frequent patches until the thing has been dealt with. Well, that's something TW won't do or can't do with the limited amount of resources spent on MP. So it's better to remove it when the patch finally drops.

I genuinely support the idea of 2H/shock classes having a place in competitive Skirmish. Maybe not as crush-through ubermensch, but certainly in a situational role such as fast shield-breakers and using their superior reach and high dpi weapons in the team-fighting. Having potentially three spawns is nice too.


I guess what killed NA is not the crushthrough, that was just the last blow, it's rather that there has been no consecutive hosting of tournaments (BEAST-series is now in 3rd iteration and will most likely have a fourth one!) and the abysmal ****ty servers you're getting.

The NA community can be fussy about tournaments. If the host is not someone well-known or well-liked a lot teams won't play. NABB was well run and it was a big success in my book, but then the attempted Scramble League which followed was actually torpedoed by its own host a few weeks in.

More tourneys definitely would have helped though. It sucks.
 
I genuinely support the idea of 2H/shock classes having a place in competitive Skirmish. Maybe not as crush-through ubermensch, but certainly in a situational role such as fast shield-breakers and using their superior reach and high dpi weapons in the team-fighting. Having potentially three spawns is nice too.
+1. And without crushthrough they will fill that role good, it just needed a little incentive to actually play the class.

The NA community can be fussy about tournaments. If the host is not someone well-known or well-liked a lot teams won't play. NABB was well run and it was a big success in my book, but then the attempted Scramble League which followed was actually torpedoed by its own host a few weeks in.

More tourneys definitely would have helped though. It sucks.
Well, but that's on your community and not on the developers. I don't want to say that devs aren't responsible for the state of the game and the MP, but we can't blame them for tournaments or the lack thereof. This is something which works well in Europe, tournaments run smooth and same for the pickups conducted here, even though these are a bit dead atm with BEAST#3 running.
 
Crushtrough sucks but I dont know anyone who stopped playing because of it. It cant be many.
Entire KO clan of 20+ on NA either uninstalled, left, or were poached because of 1.5+ We used to be the most active clan in NA with the most members and TW inactivity and lack resources to make a meaningful gameplay experience has throatpunched everyone in NA and most couldn't handle it
 
+1. And without crushthrough they will fill that role good, it just needed a little incentive to actually play the class.


Well, but that's on your community and not on the developers. I don't want to say that devs aren't responsible for the state of the game and the MP, but we can't blame them for tournaments or the lack thereof. This is something which works well in Europe, tournaments run smooth and same for the pickups conducted here, even though these are a bit dead atm with BEAST#3 running.
It is completely their fault, tournaments alike.
 
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