Credit where credit is due: What TW did right and implications for future design decisions

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vito397

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Many on these forums, including me, have made threads whose purpose is compiling negatives of the current state of the game and expressing our wishes regarding implementation of possible future features. I myself have made many such threads or comments, on the matters of RPG dialogue elements, courts, noble titles, courting ladies, banner designs, removing the bandit/player level scaleup, lack of manhunters, kingdom features and so on. I think it is time to take a look at what steps were made from WB to BL that were in my opinion of utmost importance to gameplay, and what they suggest about the future of the game.

1) Clan, family and dynasty system. Many may be surprised that families do exist in Warband, but they are not of actual relevance in any aspect other than marriage. I think it is a big step up from WB. The ability to make children, see them grow, educate them, and ultimately play as them if you are patient enough (thanks to the very good design of 80 days per year, 20 days per season) is a most commendable feature. They appropriate the looks of you and the other parent and through education you give them the needed skills and prepare them for the world. What it might imply for the future is that it might be good to add relation boosts to the family you are marrying into at least. If proper succession laws are ever implemented, your sons and daughters might one day even be kings or queens. Also, the ability for people to break off and make their own clans might be good to evaluate at some point (the "CHARACTER_NAME's Clan" is a good system of naming IMHO). Deaths of AI/AI battles and AI on AI/AI on player executions would also make for a good feature.

2) The concept of policies and influence. This sets a really good template for future addons. Even though influence as a currency could be substituted for actual physical actions (for example, talking lords out of voting for someone instead of paying 400 influence in the kingdom screen), it still is immersive and a cool workable concept. Kingdom policies that give you certain benefits as a ruler and vassal is very necessary. Also if you are a weak king and lords push through policies or if you are an influental king and rule by yourself is really good for gameplay value. It would be good to look into the concept of a revolt if you spend all your influence as a ruler blocking noble proposals. Once you reach a threshold, the nobles would appoint an anti-king (the highest influence person in the highest tier clan) to set up as king, while clan heads that you have highest relations with stay loyal to you. There are leftover civil war mechanics left in the code similar to this, and I think implementing it would be beneficial, for the player and for the AI kingdoms (that could also suffer a civil war). Even some warband mods had civil war mechanics. Also, court in the capital.

3) The concept of settlement projects. Even though the prospect of building castles and fortifications of villages (as well as villages being capturable points by themselves) was abandoned quite early on, it is still something to be included among the concepts that are necessary for the game. Upgrading your walls for example (and seeing them physically upgrade in the scene) is something that lacked in vanilla Warband and most mods. It might be good for some sort of castellan npc to be implemented upon completing the Castellan's office project, and for him to be used alongside the governor as means of expanding the details of the settlement projects, such as to set a tax level, but such options might also be done through talking to the governor. If anything, setting up the castellans office would produce a castle notable from who you could recruit noble troops instead of going through the recruitment process through village notables.

4) The notables and the actual dynamic economy/caravan/production system. Now this was one feature of debate. Many of the forum users argued that setting price caps or setting fixed prices of items would improve the quaility of gameplay. Some even wondered why such an intricate economy system was being kept behind the scenes while some other features were painfully simplified. I for one enjoy the economy system dependent on village production and caravans, and caravans being tied to specific merchant notables instead of the generic "guild master" from Warband. This allows for building of insanely more personal relations with specific NPCs and towns, while raiding villages, killing farmers and destroying caravans really does make an impact on town economies during war time. And not just ones inside a warring factions, but other ones as well, as the goods do not reach their destined cities. What I would like to see here though is a ton of balancing. Really just a ton of balancing. So to get rid of the smithy-economy or organising weddings to steal armour. Also, it would also be good for the player to have an ability to order a weapon from the smith, like notables can currently order weapons from the player.

I would appreciate if you said if you agree, disagree or if I missed something that might be included on the list. Constant negativity really does make a forum toxic, so I invite everyone to say what features they would like to see implemented or what do you find very good that was implemened in BL that was missing in WB.
 

Ulfhedinn

Sergeant
5) Minor Factions, although it's currently an almost dead feature, there is a lot to explore!

I agree with the other things you wrote.
 
Agreed! I really, really hope they further build on the building & creation aspect of the game.

1. The clan aspect of this system needs a bit of tuning, in my opinion. I think that there needs to be a better distinction between the hierarchial ranks within kingdoms. The 'Better titles for lords" mod (I believe thats the name, not sure) adds that. You can then easily distinct the clan leader from a party leader.
I am also not sure about the shared Relationship score between partys within a clan. It steers away from the unique traits and characteristics of characters and instead generalizes them, making them insignificant. What would be nice, in my opinion, would be a system where, in order to gain the favor or increase relationship score with a clan leader you would have to be well liked with all of the party leaders within the clan.
The family and dynasty system however is great and really plays into the building & creation aspect of the game. You get to build a world, a kingdom for your offspring (which you also play). For RPG and immserion matters, its great, wouldnt change a thing about it.

2. Policies and influence: Also a great feature. I would however, would like to see more "steps in between". The pop-up menu's take me out of it. For instance, once the king wants to enact a policy, he has to send messengers to the lords in the kingdom, who then have some time to vote. Meanwhile they could lobby or curry favors from other lords to sway their votes. A more political system.

3. Settlement projects: On settlements in general - they felt more rewarding in Warband. Perhaps because you started with a village (most of the time), being awarded one “ment” something. Getting one almost immediatly just because you are new in a clan makes it feel like a participation trophy. The castellan office would also improve on my point made earlier: appointing a court to help you with affairs adds a layer of depth and rewards you for progressing further into the game.

4. Agreed!

I took a half year break from TW, now in a new unmodded playthrough and the way the game has progressed thus far pleasantly surprised me. They are going into the right direction. I am content!
 

vito397

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Agreed! I really, really hope they further build on the building & creation aspect of the game.

1. The clan aspect of this system needs a bit of tuning, in my opinion. I think that there needs to be a better distinction between the hierarchial ranks within kingdoms. The 'Better titles for lords" mod (I believe thats the name, not sure) adds that. You can then easily distinct the clan leader from a party leader.
I am also not sure about the shared Relationship score between partys within a clan. It steers away from the unique traits and characteristics of characters and instead generalizes them, making them insignificant. What would be nice, in my opinion, would be a system where, in order to gain the favor or increase relationship score with a clan leader you would have to be well liked with all of the party leaders within the clan.
The family and dynasty system however is great and really plays into the building & creation aspect of the game. You get to build a world, a kingdom for your offspring (which you also play). For RPG and immserion matters, its great, wouldnt change a thing about it.

2. Policies and influence: Also a great feature. I would however, would like to see more "steps in between". The pop-up menu's take me out of it. For instance, once the king wants to enact a policy, he has to send messengers to the lords in the kingdom, who then have some time to vote. Meanwhile they could lobby or curry favors from other lords to sway their votes. A more political system.

3. Settlement projects: On settlements in general - they felt more rewarding in Warband. Perhaps because you started with a village (most of the time), being awarded one “ment” something. Getting one almost immediatly just because you are new in a clan makes it feel like a participation trophy. The castellan office would also improve on my point made earlier: appointing a court to help you with affairs adds a layer of depth and rewards you for progressing further into the game.

4. Agreed!

I took a half year break from TW, now in a new unmodded playthrough and the way the game has progressed thus far pleasantly surprised me. They are going into the right direction. I am content!
I also think these are very good ideas, thank you for typing it out. If I typed it out in my og post, it would be far too long :smile:
5) Minor Factions, although it's currently an almost dead feature, there is a lot to explore!

I agree with the other things you wrote.
Agreed with this as well! Absolutely forgot to mention them
 
I also think these are very good ideas, thank you for typing it out. If I typed it out in my og post, it would be far too long :smile:

Yeah, that’s a flaw of mine.. I get enthousiastic thinking about the direction it could be going and then I get carried away. Halfway through the post I have to read the OP to get back on the subject. Meetings at work tend to take a long time once I’m involved.

Edit: Vito, have you always felt this way about the game or we’re you like myself swayed by recent updates?
 

vito397

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Yeah, that’s a flaw of mine.. I get enthousiastic thinking about the direction it could be going and then I get carried away. Halfway through the post I have to read the OP to get back on the subject. Meetings at work tend to take a long time once I’m involved.

Edit: Vito, have you always felt this way about the game or we’re you like myself swayed by recent updates?
I must say that I have not been happy with the game for most of its duration being in early access, but I think we're on the same page when it comes to the recent updates! Some of the updates I am excited for (keep battles, AI on AI deaths, AI offering peace that was mentioned by mexxico) and some of them that are currently in made me very happy (smithy orders, child education, UI and encyclopedia updates). Some features that are not part of the current priorities or are not currently envisioned as important (naval battles, deeper diplomacy, better relationships) are just my hopes. But it is better to be hopeful than frustrated!
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
I invite everyone to say what features they would like to see implemented
I would like for the children's education to have 1 for 1 control over each FP and attribute they gain and to gain significant skill per selection as well. I would like a means to control and play as child units before they take over the clan so they can build a actually useful amount of skill. I would like the option to retire MC or current clan leader and pass clan control to an heir when I wish too and leave the ex-MC as a NPC clan member for governor or party positions. There is serious problem with heir being effectively weaker and less valuable then the original MC because you don't die at 48 (usually) so your heir is stagnating for many years, unable to gain ALL of the kills you want on your MC and so achieve far less in thier life span then the original MC.

I want a means to control my vassals and control faction strategy. I want a complete alternative to the system the NPC lords use in factions and a way to raise my own lords and generals for war. If I can overpower the lords of Calradia in warfare why should I be limited to thier tradition? I want to be a true rebel faction using my power and strategy to take the entire world out. I dislike everything about the vassal/influence system and the cycle of the AI's wars and don't want to be a part of it.

I want to build farms and food supply and patrols for my fiefs, as many as are needed. With hundreds of men standing around a millions of gold, but nobody can figure out how to build a few more farms?

I want to build something that is my own in the world, nit just taken from NPC faction. Just 1 base that's all mine, doesn't seem much to ask.

I want to forcibly remove notables in my villages when I'm independent and install (at a cost) notables of the Culture or even a minor faction or bandit that I desire.

I want Cavalry to HIT enemies with it's weapons and then ALSO hit the enemy right next to them too and NOT turn butt out and spent 5 minutes wandering around before it attacks again.

I want horse archers to behave how they did earlier last year, where they would ride AROUND enemies and not melee unless actually out of arrows, and it would be so so super if when out of ammo they could delegate themselves to the cavalry formation.
 
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