Couched Lance damage reversed

[Trajanus]

I'm a big fan of couched lance damage, its a lot of fun and really captures the essence of a cavalry shock charge. However its extremely difficult, if not impossible for the infantry to defend themselves against it, even with pikes. This is because the game is missing what could be a fun and useful feature in my opinion. Why not allow players and NPCs on foot to "ground" their pikes in a certain direction (generally the one the horse is charging in, though no doubt mistakes will be made ) and if a charging horse (or rider) connects with the pike while they have it grounded then massive damage (if not death) will be dealt.

As it is, the thrusts one can perform with the pike seem rather puny and don't really capture the deadly effect of a horseman charging into a long pointy thing.

As to how to work it in, I've a few ideas (though I'd love suggestions). Firstly, the person grounding the pike wouldn't be able to move without ungronding their pike. Secondly I think a kneeling animation would be nice, since I think (not absolutely sure) that's how pikemen historically grounded their pikes. That would cover the basics I think, though I've one more idea that I think would make the whole process more fun, though it could be complicated to code (errr. . not that any of this other stuff wouldn't be ).

To make it so the process requires some skill from the player when they ground their pike the view could switch to a first person "shift view" down their pike and make them point it with their mouse. You could even introduce some unwanted movement (not unlike a sniper rifle's scope movement) to force the player to have to constantly steady it while the horseman charges them.

That pretty much sums it up, though it certainly would be wonderful if you could order your men to form a pikewall, maybe M&B 2 . Oh, and this would also open up the possibility of men being skewered and getting stuck on pikes, certainly fun animations to consider playing with.

 

[Ingolifs]

It's something i see relatively often. People wanting to ground their pikes are fairly numerous nowadays.

As for this reverse couched lance thing, Armagan himself (gasp!) said that he considered it, and after all it would be more realistic, but he doesn't want to add it in because of balancing issues or something.

 

[Berny]

I like the idea...

I think instead of the scope movement you shuld just be very open to other attacks like have a slow recovery time when leaving the ground pike position. I also dont think you should be able to rotate the pike around 360 degrees more like 180 or even 90 degrees

 

[Kniggit]

this is where the jump button on the horse comes in, you have NO idea how many times that has saved me from bieng swarmed by foot soldiers

Ian

 

[JohnathanStrange]

this is where the jump button on the horse comes in, you have NO idea how many times that has saved me from bieng swarmed by foot soldiers

Ian

One hundred and eighty two times is my estimate. Am I right?

I use it myself for the same purpose and also when I've dismounted and found my own troops all around me blocking my exit so I jump over them!

As for a pikewall of a dozen or two dozen troops, not so impressive but probably still effective and I'd like to see it implemented - if practical.

 

[Orion]

grounding ur pike is possibly the best way to defend against charging cavalry. That or shooting the guy in the head

 

[JohnathanStrange]

grounding ur pike is possibly the best way to defend against charging cavalry. That or shooting the guy in the head

I'm not arguing against "grounded pikes." I'm in favor of any realistic and useful addition to our combat repertoire. Any additional combat techniques that were used and that fit the scale of M&B I'm generally in favor of.

What often makes me less enthusiastic about some suggestions is that they seem to disregard the size and scope of M&B. Grounding a pike is cool and would no doubt discourage that horseman riding straight at you, although in our confused melees with riders charging here and there, with bowmen and axethrowers aplenty, and individual death matches everywhere, I can easily see our pikeman slashed from the flank by a rider or catching an arrow from a Khergit bow or an axe from the bandit behind him. Again, I'm not against the idea.

All the "pikemen" suggestions imply that we have these large mass formations and horsemen would be obliging enough to charge them rather than easily and quickly going surrounding them.

Include them? Sure. If the AIs going to charge into them great! Good for us.

 

[Chaos Llama]

I think the pike grounding could be implemented without any balance issues. Just leave them hugely vulnerable and limited. It would just add another element of strategy to the battle, and wouldn't be entierely too powerful or useless. I think it'd be a good addition.

 

[Sina]

Pike's reach is long enough to stop a horse from charging but you have to hit in the right time. It is just like placing your pike infront in the time. If you ground it to early the cavalary will pass by the side and flank, if you ground it to early you will be dead. same goes for m&b

 

[Simetrical]

I think you people are underestimating the ease with which you can move a pike around. All you have to do is rest the butt lightly on the ground, pressed down slightly into it at an angle. The aim would be to let the ground absorb most of the force, not to have the pike stay perfectly still when the horse hits it. You could very easily move a pike's point around while still keeping it in a position where it will thoroughly skewer any horsies that try charging it.

I don't think this is a balance problem. You'd have to tell AI horsemen to avoid pikes like the plague, of course, but infantrymen would make short work of any pikemen who were trying to fend off cavalry with planted pikes, and cavalry could also deal with them quite handily by outflanking them. Plus, if a horseman has a pike that's sufficiently longer, he can charge in and kill the pikeman before the pike hits him.

 

[Inbar]

grounding the pike is very good idea and very correct I would say. But grounding should be as a separate skill, when pike is grounded, the warrior can't move around, the pkeman will be unprotected wrom the sides, would be great to have two positions: low and high pike holding for two warriors coul stand one after another to make close pikewall. This may be cool for multiplayer

 

[svart]

Why couldn't the pikemen move after grounding he pike ? he's still holding it and can fine tune it, and the way i see it he can also rotate around his foot by taking large steps with his other foot.

 

[Inbar]

well, in this case the pikeman would be invulnerable to charging riders. But as for me the very fact of pike grounding would be cool.

 

[Ryuta]

When grounding a pike, or spear, a pikeman can't move because of his posture. He has to secure his pike-butt firmly on ground and hold it with his foot. So if he moved, he has to do it again. I think he can't even rotate the pike but, as the game's feature, he should rotate it, but not moving.

 

[svart]

When grounding a pike, or spear, a pikeman can't move because of his posture. He has to secure his pike-butt firmly on ground and hold it with his foot. So if he moved, he has to do it again. I think he can't even rotate the pike but, as the game's feature, he should rotate it, but not moving.

You can rotate by taking big steps with your other leg, try it with a broom.
And i doubt pikemen would actually stick the butt into the ground, because you'll need a relativly soft spot for that.

 

[Ryuta]

I didn't say stick in the ground. It could be possible (most of open fields were, well, fields. So soil is relatively soft), but I meant to put butt on ground to secure the pike(perhaps half-driven into ground), then put your foot on it to prevent it from skidding when it hit.

Well, for rotating, I tried and I could rotate, but it's very awkward and slow.

 

[Luthius]

This seems a fair enough idea and i like it for a few reasons and not for others.

Likes: It would make some of my fave weapons like throwing axes really useful as you could implant it in a pikemans head while riding past him.
This makes a useful archer defence, half like forming a square

Dislikes: I don't want to see,

Vaegir horseman killed by bandit pikeman
Vaegir horseman killed by bandit pikeman
Vaegir horseman killed by bandit pikeman

down my screen if my allies are too dumb.

I also don't want to see,

Vaegir pikeman killed by Khegrit raider
Vaegir pikeman killed by Khegrit raider
Vaegir pikeman killed by Khegrit raider

because they just stand still and get shot up all the time.

The AI needs to be good so that they only plant the pike when in immediate danger and can pull out a shield (like all other troops can) when under missile threat and your horsemen need to avoid them. This would mean different groups have different signals in game. Presenty i doubt your cavalry have a preference in targets and all enemy have the same (i want to kill you rating). If theres preference then there can be squad groups

 

[svart]

I didn't say stick in the ground. It could be possible (most of open fields were, well, fields. So soil is relatively soft), but I meant to put butt on ground to secure the pike(perhaps half-driven into ground), then put your foot on it to prevent it from skidding when it hit.

Well, for rotating, I tried and I could rotate, but it's very awkward and slow.

Good, i was alarmed for a sec that i didn't know what grounding meant
I mentioned the steps because it will be a bit silly if you were stuck on the ground like an mg42 - rotating is slow but didn't seem akeward to me. (looked like something that would blend well in the game)

 

[Slaists]

I like the grounded pike idea. But, have you guys noticed that spears have become much more efficient as anti-couched-lance infantry weapons now? I, for example, try to avoid charging spearmen now... Has hurt a few times... Badly...

 

[Volkier]

Ok, few things which should not be overloooked, when you stick a lance into a person, while you sit on a charging horse, it would hurt the person pretty much, impale them, and may even rip their limbs off (providing you aim with it).

However, when as somebody mentioned the lance is stationary (stuck in the ground or held by a person), the weight of the charging horse which would pretty my be critically wounded or killed by such impact, would most definately break the lance (if its stationary) or have the same impact on the person holding the lance, causing them to pretty much fly backwards or be dragged along by the wounded horse. Possibly the horse screaming and thrashing on top of the guy who was standing in its way with a lance.

I support the idea completely, however should this be the case, the lance ought to break for the rest of the fight after you impaled one horse on it. May sound harsh, but its a 1shot 1 kill move, realistic enough, and it would not overpower the infantry up to the extent that they have an advantage over cavalry, and not wise versa. Just what I personally think on this matter.