corona? :(

[Nodice83]

3M are claiming they are choosing demographic samples from several countries, but they must have an agenda impacting the samples.

I am pretty sure they do... like they would like to own the 'Science' itself and any aspect of it. Stinks a mile off... when you think about it.

EDIT: But still, it also matters how the question was actually put... If we will for a second assume those are not faked. I can still imagine one person answering Yes to "Do you think science is changing your life?" and No to "Would your life change if there is no science?".

 

[Mad Vader]

I am pretty sure they do... like they would like to own the 'Science' itself and any aspect of it. Stinks a mile off... when you think about it.

EDIT: But still, it also matters how the question was actually put... If we will for a second assume those are not faked. I can still imagine one person answering Yes to "Do you think science is changing your life?" and No to "Would your life change if there is no science?".

Just a few days ago, I met someone who worked as a pollster and he told me how they don't just call random people by demographic, but they use a database of people that like to answer polls, because this saves time/money. They also know what they answered in previous polls, so they could tailor the poll results by calling the right people, which is important to clients.
That made me a bit more skeptical about polls in general, although I knew already that there are methodology tricks to make the result more favorable to a client. (it works a bit like Republicans limiting voting for some groups by applying seemingly general rules for everyone)

 

[eddiemccandless]

Oh you can definitely do all sort of shenanigans with polls. I occasionally do surveys myself and writing questions so that you don't lead people to a certain answer, even involuntarily, is a tricky business.

 

[Lord Brutus]

You know, I'm old enough to remember when there was no Polio vaccine. First came the Salk vaccine, injectable, one dose, then the Saban vaccine, taken orally in a sugar cube on three consecutive Sundays, called "Saban Sundays". And there were no naysayers, no one argued against the vaccines. No BS from the right proclaiming individual freedom outweighs public health. There also was no social media, no Fox News, no OAN, no Newsmax.

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Because people were, on the whole, less educated and information was more difficult to access, therefore people were more inclined to trust experts in their respective fields.

 

[Mad Vader]

Everything was much harder before the internet.
When Brutus was a schoolboy, he had to clear his own path through the snow and fight off wolves and Confederate ambushes on his way to school.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Because people were, on the whole, less educated and information was more difficult to access, therefore people were more inclined to trust experts in their respective fields.

It wasn't that access to information was limited, it's that the information today from some sources consists of one lie after another. Vader, I did have to clear my own path through the snow but my home in NJ had no wolves. Mountain lions, yes but no wolves.

 

[eddiemccandless]

A bit of a historical perspective on the development and distribution of polio vaccine for whoever is interested.

Lessons from the Salk Polio Vaccine: Methods for and Risks of Rapid Translation

The Salk inactivated poliovirus vaccine is one of the most rapid examples of bench‐to‐bedside translation in medicine. In the span of 6 years, the key basic lab discoveries facilitating the development of the vaccine were made, optimization ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Mad Vader]

That was interesting, obviously vaccine making has improved both in sciencing speed and safety by now.
One of the baffling objections of anti-newstuff people is funnily the speed at which Covid vaccines were developed, it felt rushed to them and they are concerned about both sufficient testing and unknown long-term effects. These are legitimate concerns for people actually looking for facts and not something else.
I assume the Covid vaccines (particularly the efficient mRNA stuff) were a showcase of how med tech have advanced and how we are lucky to live in times when vaccines can be developed quickly and in time to protect many in pandemics situations.
What do the resident medical experts think?

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I had no idea so many people still used candle light and rode on horses. Good for them.

Even candles and horses are the product of advanced technology. Hell even dogs are a kind of android.
When conspiracy people or even normies say "I dont trust scientists" what they really mean is something like "I don't want to be bossed around by experts hiding behind the government", and a lot of it is performative. In practice most of these people follow along with the vast majority of what experts say.
It seems contradictory but these are not overlapping beliefs. Pointing out to a conspiracy nut that they still use technology is a bit silly. Their problem isn't with the technology, its the loss of personal power and dignity that comes from being pressured into doing what a powerful guy says. They're hipsters.

It wasn't that access to information was limited, it's that the information today from some sources consists of one lie after another.

Yeah, I think way too much credit is placed on the internet for creating conspiracies. Waves of mass hysteria have plagued europe for almost 1000 years since the first crusade. Intellectuals in the 1500s similarly blamed the printing press for causing crazy beliefs, but even before most people were fully literate there were insane counternarratives like this that emerge in response to crisis.

 

[eddiemccandless]

Even candles and horses are the product of advanced technology. Hell even dogs are a kind of android.

Yes, but none of that was produced by the scientific method and controlled experiments, which is what most people would consider modern science (before that doctors, if you want to call them that, followed procedures based on tradition, which in many cases caused interventions to do more harm than they did good). That's why I went with that.

 

[Nodice83]

Yes, but none of that was produced by the scientific method and controlled experiments, which is what most people would consider modern science (before that doctors, if you want to call them that, followed procedures based on tradition, which in many cases caused interventions to do more harm than they did good). That's why I went with that.

I am thrilled to find out more about candles...

 

[Adorno]

I think it's one of those cases where you can ask questions that are too broad to get meaningful/useful answers.
If you asked people "what is science?" you might get 100 different answers.

 

[Nodice83]

I think it's one of those cases where you can ask questions that are too broad to get meaningful/useful answers.
If you asked people "what is science?" you might get 100 different answers.

Plus the trap of the closed questions, e.g. Do you think science changed your life? Yes or No. You would probably get different results in different groups in separate runs. Like what does it mean 'changed' to an individual?

 

[dijiTurk]

The problem is that you have the wrong dose and look for information in all the wrong places.
Why is it important what some Turkish doctor on a random Turkish channel thinks? Why do you think this will be interesting to anyone??
This thread should be about legitimate, real information about Covid - NOT DISINFORMATION you keep posting.

I'm trying to bring interesting news or discusstion about covid19 for forum user that are interested in the topic. I'm not an authorized person (as u clearly know), and i dont say there is a certain situation/knowledge, or i dont force anyone for these uncertain thing to talk into believing. I was talking informal which can be quite interesting. --No disinformation, but public inquiry in common sharing/talking area(thread-forum). To sum, im not trying to be harmful for west/new technologies with disinformation. Trying to see whats going on in a wide perspective with all news&authorities that related with this topic(not my news/my words). The turkish doc's words are something that we can check because he's related with covid19-health cases with his job experience. His expressions(that i shared some at my previous post) were interesting and unusual. With suspicious & interrogator approach, i did think its good to bring his expressions here(forum) to talk between us in topic. I support all medical authorities' decisions & critics from other authorities should be open as freedom of expression & public goodness with healthy working studies.

- Turks will keep believing in conspiracy theories and post them on a forum about a Turkish game.

This forum has many topics, and people like to discuss about the topics right? Also, i just shared a doctor's expressions & that was just my sharing, not all Turks. Also, that was doctor's expressions, not mine.

@dijiTurk I honestly have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say in that post. What is the question here?

I just heard some unusual expressions about some studies/covid19 vaccine & i wanted to share these expressions with asking some of these expressions' situation to forum users(you & adorno) that may see if doctor is right about what he said. You know i dont know about articles/studies/math much.

Now, from responds (as i understand), doc's point about studies' early state, and concerns for possible side effects are logical. Many other things that doc expressed have still question mark as safety ratio calculation.

As a general rule it is not exactly easy to have a conversation based on Turkish sources when I can't understand the language. Especially when the language is so different from English and there seems to be quite a bit that is lost in translation.

Also, it's not like I am in a position of particular authority in all things covid. I work in academia but I am not an MD or an infectious disease expert. @Adorno is likely to be more knowledgeable than me, although I don't know that he'll have better luck making sense of all that ?

I tried to ask him about "safety ratio (%95 ) , ARR-RRR " via by message but, couldn't reach.
Now, i found another person that is close to covid19-health cases. This doc has similar expression with the turkish doc at some point (studies at early state/non-complete):


(to MadVader: I was at TikTok, and i was killing my time with its' %80 empty content(including girl dances) & %20 of its' useful content. I saw the Canadian doctor's translated video there. This doc's words also interesting for me. And, i thought its good to talk it here as a world citizen. This doesn't mean doc is pure right or i say this is a formal information. Just sharing covid19 related news/discustions etc to talk amoung us. )

Edit: yeah I was gonna try to watch the video with the autotranslate feature, but it is more than 2 hours long. @dijiTurk I think you are obsessing a bit with this kind of thing, and I don't think it's very healthy.

I just checked the parts where where the doc talked at +2hour long video, while i was preparing to sum his expressions. I didnt share expressions from others( i just want to look what doctor says) . So, for second time, it took much less time. And, i'm not looking covid19 news 7/24, so, for now, i personally think that i'm still in healthy limits. And, as a non-authorized world citizen, i wont go deep researches, (just basics) . That's not my job.

I don't know of any studies on famotidin for either Covid treatment or prevention.
I can say it's not something we use where I work.
(At the start of the pandemic a lot of drugs for treatment were studied. It might have been one of those that fell through. Just like Ivermectin proved useless).
Regardless, you should completely ignore that video and everything they say.

Doc says that his patients cured with those drugs. And, FDA has one positive study for one of drugs in a study at in vitra form. But, yes, other FDA sources say that they are useless. That's strange, and i wondered if u hear these drugs/their efficent on covid19. You also said that they are useless, too. Okey. Seems like they(drugs) are still at one doc's experimental area, not approved state.
I ignore all others at that video, but i can't say that all doc's said words are worthless. Doc says he's not aganist vaccine, but this covid19 "vaccines" are not accually vaccines (including sinovac which is also not completed phase3 ). And he has big concerns about these "vaccines" for possible future side effects. He expressed this with this https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download (this has some parts that support docs as he said )

I hope that man is not a "Doc". It sounds like he's suggesting to ignore vaccines and rely on preventive measures, including... walks (?)
That is absolutely not advised. You can still contract the disease and potentially spread it.
There's no harm in following those common health advice, but it's not a substitute for hygiene and getting vaccinated.
Vitamin C is water soluble so there's no danger in getting too much (you just pee it out). But if you eat a varied diet you are not lilely to lack it.
Vitamin D deficiency is common, so overdoses are rarely seen. More and more places Vitamin D supplement is adviced to the general public during winter, or if you get little sun.

Covid-19: India excess deaths cross four million, says study

Excess deaths - those above expected levels - are a measure of the overall impact of the pandemic.

www.bbc.com

Just to make a bit more clear my translate: He tells that there is an harmful virus. He's not aganist vaccines & tells that covid19 vaccines we see are not ready to be vaccine. And, walking advise was for individual body health improvement to fight better aganist virus(like taking C-D vitamins etc = making stronger body health).
Drugs seems unapproved, but he says he cured some of his patient with them..
Old news but here one: https://abc7news.com/pepcid-ac-covid-famotidin-19/6132197/

Ok, I had some time on my bus commute this morning and I read @dijiTurk's post more in detail. I can tell you that this part is said in bad faith:



He is talking about relative vs absolute risk reduction. The absolute metric, which he wants to use, is misleading. Imagine that you have a vaccine that offers absolute immunity from the virus, you test it on two groups of 20k people. 200 in the control group get sick, 0 in the vaccine group get sick. If you use the absolute metric to evaluate it you would get an absolute risk reduction of 1%, which is nonsensical given that this imaginary vaccine offers complete immunity.

I couldnt reach the doc to ask this part. I dont know method or ARR RRR things. So, im done here. I'll hold this at myself as questionable, not clear part.


Thanks all for taking time, and respond my sharings. It's good to talk with community, seeing + or - statements about expressions/news.. I know these kind of expressions/news can be totally untrue, but i just wanted to talk about them in a general conversation. I dont say they are %100 true, and i'm an authorized one at any specific area. I'm just a world citizen & taleworlds forum member that shares some news(etc) about covid19 at forum's related thread. I think this behaviour(without any disinformation action) is representation of public opinion in a wide perspective & its valuable.

I'll keep sharing covid19 releated interesting or important news(etc) here, if i dont forget.
Thanks for responds (even critics ones). Sorry for grammer. <3

 

[Mad Vader]

I'm trying to bring interesting news or discusstion about covid19 for forum user that are interested in the topic. I'm not an authorized person...

This forum has many topics, and people like to discuss about the topics right? Also, i just shared a doctor's expressions & that was just my sharing, not all Turks. Also, that was doctor's expressions, not mine.

Spreading conspiracy theories is NOT interesting. It's your responsibility to judge what is a conspiracy, if you spread it.
A single doctor can have all kinds of opinions, but what we are interested in is what the majority of doctors think, not the weird one. Do you even know what the medical profession thinks? It's all in the news and not on some second rate channel. There's no excuse for not knowing what is true when you are given every opportunity to learn.
What you are doing is both evil and stupid and you don't even know why, that's why I keep telling you to stop.

 

[Nodice83]

@dijiTurk

I know your intention was good but I fully agree with Vader. You are the first to separate garbage from valuable information when you decide to post it. You mentioned 'a doctor', there were several of those charlatans in my country. Some people trusted them - they are either gone or changed their minds after a 'hard post covid' syndromes. The sole fact they have MD before their names doesn't mean those are key opinion leaders/experts.

I was at TikTok, and i was killing my time with its' %80 empty content(including girl dances) & %20 of its' useful content.

See? This is the best proof you still have got a lot to learn in this regard. You ask why? Because you put words 'TikTok' and 'useful content' next to each other in a sentence...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[eddiemccandless]

@dijiTurk ok, let me put it this way. Surely you know by now that not everything that you read on the internet is trustworthy. What criteria do you use to try and distinguish between what is true and what isn't? Because surely one does not want to spread what is false when it comes to health measures. I hope you can see that that is dangerous and does real harm.

 

[dijiTurk]

Spreading conspiracy theories is NOT interesting. It's your responsibility to judge what is a conspiracy, if you spread it.

I understand that you see me as i give/share misinformation & conspiracy theories; so you want me stop doing it. But, i'm looking for news, any kind of covid19 news, and minority of professionals'(individual doctors' etc) thoughts/experiments or uncertain side effect arguments for covid19 vaccines also carries news value. Aren't they? Some local news bring this kind of news as previously we saw. I think this can be talked as we know they have not certain/offical information. Talking within this approach can only lead researhing arguments/news/experiments/expressions by authorities at word wide imo. Because, i dont say the minority is right, or the information from them are offical.. So, i still having hard time to understand what is wrong if they are not misinformation or conspiracy theories as i point them what they are.
+ I didn't say anyone to don't use vaccine to anyone. Or i didn't say FDA or other authorities are not trustful. I only shared possible side effect news & some arguments from some individual medical workers/researchers. If there are some arguments, global authorities (like FDA) should check arguments, and inform world repeatly & transparently. I can't see my wrong point if i'm already in the way of how things work?

A single doctor can have all kinds of opinions, but what we are interested in is what the majority of doctors think, not the weird one. Do you even know what the medical profession thinks? It's all in the news and not on some second rate channel. There's no excuse for not knowing what is true when you are given every opportunity to learn.
What you are doing is both evil and stupid and you don't even know why, that's why I keep telling you to stop.

The turkish doctor (i previously shared his own experiments/expressions as doctor) is not seem weird one to me:

https://tr.linkedin.com/in/serhat-findik-a90536a4

As he is a doctor, and a bit experienced as i see.. I can stop & listen what he saw about covid19 from his experiments & knowledge with documents he shared. I dont think is a bad behavior. The needed step should be global authorities' reasearch for his arguments & telling results all. Whats wrong here? I dont say doc's experiments all offical. I say "one professional says these things. can this be real? can we check if he is right or not " , and global authorities should focus on next step.

@dijiTurk

I know your intention was good but I fully agree with Vader. You are the first to separate garbage from valuable information when you decide to post it. You mentioned 'a doctor', there were several of those charlatans in my country. Some people trusted them - they are either gone or changed their minds after a 'hard post covid' syndromes. The sole fact they have MD before their names doesn't mean those are key opinion leaders/experts.

The turkish doctor seems trustful as individual, but of course i need offical researches' results from key authorities. He's just sharing his experiment/expressions, and i thought it's valuable enough(even for a news) to share here.

I dont know other dr either. But, after i see TikTok video, i just check if there is a real viral immunologist. There is. And, video was at youtube also. At some points canadian dr, and turkish dr pointed out same things, so i wanted share another dr's conferance video at my previous post.
I didn't consider canadian dr's professional expressions as garbage as he looks as profession at field. And also, his own expressions are not offical/trustful. He just share his professional expressions, and those seemed valuable as news to be shared. (and should be valuable to check for global authorities) .

U of G prof says he is receiving workplace harassment after sharing vaccine concerns

The University of Guelph says opinions expressed by faculty or researchers are their own and do not reflect the opinions of the university

www.guelphtoday.com

bbridle | Pathobiology

ovc.uoguelph.ca

See? This is the best proof you still have got a lot to learn in this regard. You ask why? Because you put words 'TikTok' and 'useful content' next to each other in a sentence...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I sometimes wasting time at TikTok, and it has some contents like: recipes of food, pratical grammer informations, daily life information about countries abroad (like market prices at US ) , some celebrity speeches etc. I roughtly said all of this kind of useful TikTok content can be only %20. There is a huge amount of fruitless TikTok content. (i do not talked about entertainment factor. With this factor, TikTok is much more usable app) . I consider Dr's speech at TikTok as useful, because he was talking as turkish doctor at some point.

@dijiTurk ok, let me put it this way. Surely you know by now that not everything that you read on the internet is trustworthy. What criteria do you use to try and distinguish between what is true and what isn't? Because surely one does not want to spread what is false when it comes to health measures. I hope you can see that that is dangerous and does real harm.

I don't say doctors say truth. They just share their own experiments/expressions, and i give them value as they are professions. And, i say these kind of expressions are not offical/trustworthy, they are just expressions that should be checked by authorities. They should speak as they are part of those who should speak. And, they can't be trustworthy of course. Their words can be considered as part of finding best/trustful information as my view. (because all studies/authorities/docs should check all arguments, and find truth) .

Btw, i'm not aganist vaccines. I have one dose vaccine that most of the health workers had at turkey. And, i will probably have another dose. However, i'm unhappy that none of the vaccines passed phase3 stage studies, and bad sideeffects are possible.







I didn't share news for a long time. Here one.

AstraZeneca and Pfizer COVID vaccines have 'similar' blood clot risk

Researchers in Barcelona found both jabs carried a similarly low risk of blood clots, while people infected with COVID-19 were much more likely to develop them.

www.euronews.com

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I say "one professional says these things. can this be real? can we check if he is right or not " , and global authorities should focus on next step.

[video from a divorced psuedoscientist claiming that black people are subhumans]
"thoughts, guys?????"

This is the exact same thing as the Armenian genocide thread. If you consistently post moronic garbage you find between browsing for softcore porn on tiktok, people are going to think you're a moron. Nobody is going to debate whether the claims in the video are valid or not, because they are from bad sources, make bad-faith claims, and have been debunked a million times.

The thing is, You never even say that you're looking for someone to verify the validity of a video. You just post it, and then when people say "this is total bullcrap" you get defensive and claim you were just innocently trying to start discussion on something you "randomly" found online.

Ignore Madh'vader. I say go for it. Başarılar. Post every single video you see on tıktok that remotely pertains to Covid-19. Even post the sexualised dance videos and the incest fetish stuff that makes up the rest of tiktok. Post videos of you reacting to all of them, post links to their onlyfans, post videos of rich California girls pretending to be in Auschwitz, post everything.