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Now with all of that said, I am really curious to know how you feel about the whole Texas abortion thing and the way they went about it, given your thoughts about this.
That's like asking "what are they saying in right-wing echo chambers about X, but also add some lawyerly dirty talk."
She'll start with leftist "hypocrisy" over mask/vaccine mandates compared to their abortion liberalism, continue with relativizing how an effective abortion ban is not a ban, but a social agreement when a life begins, then finish off with defending democratically elected guys making democratically legitimate decisions for women. (Also how Roe vs. Wade was just some random 7:2 decision and there's no reason to respect it much.)
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms
Generally speaking, I have no problem with premiums for smokers and I would have no problem for premiums for fat people, addicts, or anti-vaxxers as long as they are justified by insurance math and not a thinly-veiled punishment for its own sake.
Generally speaking, no one takes issue with anti-vaxxers as long as it's justified and not a not-so-thingly-veiled conspiratorial, baby lash-out. This is probably also the answer to your earlier question, if you think about it for long enough.

This is kind of a No True Scotsman combined with reverse Slippery Slope fallacy.
''You're not doing a slippery slope fallacy !!!'' must be the most ingenious way to defend your own slippery slope. You're an inspiration. (This is sarcasm, for the record. I think you're either being dishonest or misspeaking.)
 

kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
So Kimmel was approached by Biden admin staffers to float a terrible idea that everyone would hate? AFAIK trial balloons are floated in politicians' speeches and journalist articles, not some funny guy cracking jokes. You are just being paranoid and hostile to a Democrat government.
Unless you have some kind of proof or indication that it's a trial balloon, this is just conspiracy mongering.

Does this really look like a trial balloon to anyone? Give me a break.
The wilder the idea, the more distance they put between it and themselves at first. I don't have a proof. Yes, I absolutely believe that people in media coordinate with politicians. This applies to Republicans and the media that back them too. It applies to all countries and their media too.

Generally speaking, no one takes issue with anti-vaxxers as long as it's justified and not a not-so-thingly-veiled conspiratorial, baby lash-out. This is probably also the answer to your earlier question, if you think about it for long enough.

''You're not doing a slippery slope fallacy !!!'' must be the most ingenious way to defend your own slippery slope. You're an inspiration. (This is sarcasm, for the record. I think you're either being dishonest or misspeaking.)
I don't know what the first part means. I'll think about it for a long, long time and let you know when and if something comes through.

I'm not misspeaking, my take is that slippery slope is not a fallacy in the first place. It's an accurate description of the salami method that politicians use all the time. It is invoking this non-fallacy as a fallacy that is fallacious. Basically gas-lighting.
 
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Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms
I don't know what the first part means. I'll think about it for a long, long time and let you know when and if something comes through.
My read is that your issue is that you feel that people want to punish anti-vaxxers for no more reasons than petty hatred. You have no problems with punishment but the punishment should be justified.

Similarly, maybe people don't actually take issue with anti-vaxxing in itself. Maybe it's not blind, tribal hatred. Anti-vaxxing is fine but should also be justified.

If A people lash out against B in hatred because they're told what to do unjustly, group B lashes out against group A unjustifiably, too.

I'm not misspeaking, my take is that slippery slope is not a fallacy in the first place... It is invoking this non-fallacy as a fallacy that is fallacious. Basically gas-lighting.
That means that you're misspeaking because your counterargument to a lack of evidence is accusing someone of a non-existent fallacy. Basically gas-lighting.

It's an accurate description of the salami method that politicians use all the time.
The problem with the logic is that if it is held consistently that all similarly unjustified beliefs become as valid in my mind. It means that my Muslim cousin arguing that cartoons promote degeneracy as part of a liberal agenda suddenly becomes as real, as an example.

Democrats want to seriously deny insurance for anti-vaxxers.
Correlates with...
Politicians coordinating with the media.
Which is evidenced by...
The idea floating around on Kimmel (a Democrat).

Liberals want to seriously force degeneracy onto others.
Correlates with...
Politicians coordinating with the media (cartoons).
Which is evidenced by...
Liberals promoting for free-er sex stuff in civil society.

And before you go ''BASED TRUE BASED!!!!!!'' you are a liberal relative to my cousin and he would lash you.
 
The wilder the idea, the more distance they put between it and themselves at first. I don't have a proof. Yes, I absolutely believe that people in media coordinate with politicians. This applies to Republicans and the media that back them too. It applies to all countries and their media too.
Okay, I'll try to be extremely rational and honest.

There are two main objections to this:
1. You don't float ideas through a late night comedian
You do this through politicians in your own party who are acting as proxies, some closer, some more distant. People don't listen to Kimmel for hints on possible long-term policies of the Biden administration. It's too stupid to be taken seriously.
2. You don't float terrible ideas
While policy makers do sometimes have terrible ideas (especially incompetent authoritarians like the orange guy), most of the time they are grounded in reality, particularly how those ideas resonate with voters.
I'm at Biden's part of political spectrum (and a vindictive SOB who despises anti-vaxxers), so while I can't speak for the moderate left, it's obvious even to me that denying healthcare to anti-vaxxers is a terrible (and probably illegal) idea that would make a bad situation worse. Biden's health policy makers team are probably smarter than me and would probably reject any such idea in seconds. Even floating it makes things worse.

Conclusion: it's a right-wing paranoid fantasy designed to make the left-wing government look sinister and evil.
 
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kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
I, for one, hate the schtick when certain tv personalities push politics while claiming they are just comedians, bro, so clearly I'm beyond all reproach. As far as I am aware, it started with Jon Stewart and the whole Daily Show office culture. Kimmel, Colbert, Oliver, Noah and their ilk are opinion journalists first, comedians distant second.

You may choose to think I'm full of ****, and I wouldn't blame you, but I have second (yes, second, not third, not fourth, if by first we mean actual personal experience) information that DNC representatives routinely touch base with a different, but equally prominent late night show host. But **** me and my friend, just watch tv and compare it against official party lines. Suggesting that Kimmel or Colbert are not in touch with DNC is just as ridiculous as suggesting that Hannity or Ingraham just happen to copy-paste RNC/trump campaign talking points respectively.It's been a little more complicated with Republicans since 2015 and the pro-/anti- Trump split.

this is unironically 2smart4me, I have pregnancy brain, ok? I gotta process this on my own terms.
p4Iwg.jpg
 
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eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
I'm at Biden's part of political spectrum (and a vindictive SOB who despises anti-vaxxers), so while I can't speak for the moderate left, it's obvious even to me that denying healthcare to anti-vaxxers is a terrible (and probably illegal) idea that would make a bad situation worse. .

To play devil's advocate for a moment, the US is the only country in the world where this MIGHT not be illegal. Since healthcare is not a public service nor a right but a luxury you have to pay for. That's part of why I see the no vaxxers as victims, they are really screwing themselves over with those medical bills. I also wouldn't be surprised to see long term increases in overall cost of healthcare for everyone because of this.

Suggesting that Kimmel or Colbert are not in touch with DNC is just as ridiculous as suggesting that Hannity or Ingraham just happen to copy-paste RNC/trump campaign talking points respectively.It's been a little more complicated with Republicans since 2015 and the pro-/anti- Trump split.
I don't know how the Democrats/late night shows dynamic works, but for Trump I am pretty sure that it's him just taking anything Fox News goes with rather than him telling them things to run. The man has an unhealthy obsession and watches way too much tv.

Also, at least John Oliver frankly does a better job at providing information than most news outlets. There's a bias, but everything he runs with is verifiably accurate, which is more than you can say for other news outlets I could mention (and I am actually thinking about CNN and MSNBC here to stay on the same end of the spectrum). The only journalism entity that comes close to delivering "objective and impartial" information in the US is AP. The problem is that you can't be impartial and find a balanced presentation between two people when one is saying that we are having a thunderstorm and one is saying that it's a sunny, hot dry day. One of them is wrong. That is what is happening right now on issues like "voter fraud" and COVID. Not to talk about Jewish space lasers...

Also: I don't really see Biden supporting denying health care to unvaccinated people. That is honestly a line of thought that belongs more in the current Republican culture than elsewhere, the only reason why they are not going with it is that they happen to support this behavior for some insane reason (although to be fair not all of them).

I also don't know that there's much of a Trump/no Trump split in the Republicans now. There were some attempts but I don't see that going anywhere, which is a problem.
 
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Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
The gist:
In a hospital in Branson, Missouri, as many as 400 staff members will have panic buttons added to their identification badges after assaults on staff members tripled amid the pandemic. Assaults rose from 40 in 2019 to 123 in 2020, the Associated Press reported.

... addition to panic buttons, hospitals are also adding extra security cameras and having security personnel wear body cameras.

Kootenai Health, in northern Idaho, increased security ...

In Texas, health workers have also faced a spike in hostility and violence ...

In Colorado, health officials in Jefferson County took mobile vaccination clinics off the road over Labor Day weekend after medical staff faced jeers, harassment, and assaults.
 
I, for one, hate the schtick when certain tv personalities push politics while claiming they are just comedians, bro, so clearly I'm beyond all reproach. As far as I am aware, it started with Jon Stewart and the whole Daily Show office culture. Kimmel, Colbert, Oliver, Noah and their ilk are opinion journalists first, comedians distant second.
Sure, it's not hygienic when all the top comedians are left wing, but maybe this tells you something about the right wing. :smile:
I found Jon Stewart often unfunny with only some of his sidekicks getting a good joke in. To agree with Eddie here, John Oliver on his own does excellent (journalistic) work AND is funnier than Stewart.
But this is beside the point of DNC conspiracies. It's perfectly reasonable that liberals (and their comedians) hold similar views and don't need DNC messaging to make new jokes. Unlike the DNC, they also thrive on controversy, so bad jokes are worth some clicks and views.
Occam's Razor, right there.

If I take bad anti-vaxxer putdowns from the internet and read them on Youtube, that doesn't mean that the DNC comes every night to my bed, whispering soft trial balloons. It means I'm not very good at being funny and try to make up for it with offensiveness.
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
I am really not a fan of Jimmy Kimmel myself. He had a terrible take on vaccine messaging and he often makes fun of random people for being "dumb" which is not what satire should do. Satire should go after people with power, not the everyday person, no matter who they vote for or how dumb they are. Stephen Colbert occasionally does that too although he is not as bad about it. On the other hand I don't think I ever saw John Oliver target anyone who didn't have a ridiculous amount of money and/or wasn't in a position of power/hadn't scammed people (he had one hilarious episode on psychics).
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC

It sounds like this is the first human trial (phase 3) of the drug with just 377 participants.
It's a new drug and the study is by the company itself.
Would be nice with a few trials by other (independent) researchers. But still, looks like good results.

(As Dane I'll now be suing them for cultural appropriation of that ridiculous name. My mythology is not a product.)
 
I feel like the average person who watches a lot of late-night talk shows is that arrogant, upper-class liberal who sees him/herself as sophisticated for watching late-night talk shows.
 

dijiTurk

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
Looks like some countries pausing this vaccine's use.

My first question is that if its' side effect was too low(and even that low amount is enough to pause), why didn't they paused it before as now?
Other question from this news is that did they just see side effects nowadays?



I'm sharing because no one has. But I'm nervous about sharing here.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
That side effect has been known for quite some time now - which is why Denmark (perhaps as the first country) and Sweden stopped using it.
The predicament has been that it's so rare that the benefits (literally saving lives) were estimated to outweigh the risks.
Now that more vaccines are available - and in large quantities - it becomes easier to "pick and choose", and avoid those with severe side effects.
Also, more studies are now on the way, giving a better picture of these side effects.
(When Denmark decided against using Moderna's vaccine it was partly because other vaccines were available. Otherwise it would not have been an option.)

As the virus becomes more under control (with large populations vaccinated) it's also time to be more critical of side effects.
Ideally a vaccine should never have serious side effects. In this case it has simply been tolerated because of the high death rate and urgency of the pandemic.
 
I'm sharing because no one has. But I'm nervous about sharing here.
No one here has shared Flat Earth theories either, but that's not a good reason to start.
Everything you post implies some kind of conspiracy, that's why you should continue to be nervous. It's not an honest effort to find the truth and you should not pretend it is.
 

dijiTurk

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
@MadVader . Even i don't follow news in large scale/sharp routine, i still folllow a little. And, last couple years with various news in local & universal channels showed me that subject comes always to human being.

>I read a news about a doctor who treated the poor people with using hospital revolving funds & got punishment (i do remember news, but i cant find right now. even i find, i dont think there is an english version of it at any source. It was an old dated news that i somehow catched) .
>And, i also saw( & read details) about this news recent weeks:


“At times there could be mistakes. COVID vaccines are mistakenly given to six-month-old babies instead of measles or hepatitis-B jabs. But no side effects have been detected; the jabs even boosted their antibodies..”
..
Z.K. also suggested that he would publish the results of infant vaccination in a respectable medical journal.



And, if i dont see wrong at some places; Z.K. is interrelated with one well-known vaccine firm.


First news needed its' punishment because it's not legal.
Second news needs its' punishment because it's not legal & ethic. (btw, vaccinated babies' families can be also poor. and, this kind of doctors should be in the room )

First news subject got the punishment.
Second news will probably not. Because, there is a strong wind to the science community.

I catched these two news. And, i can say that there is a problem at second news, too. I don't see the truth is reached at second news. Local/global news/human being (positively or negatively) needs to find it(truth) honestly. And, my effort is real.
 
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What you call "news" here is an irrelevant local anecdote sprinkled with your usual idiotic conspiracies "well-known vaccine firm is behind this". "science community prevents justice" etc. Your mind is full of crap and you don't even know it.
 

dijiTurk

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
What you call "news" here is an irrelevant local anecdote sprinkled with your usual idiotic conspiracies "well-known vaccine firm is behind this". "science community prevents justice" etc. Your mind is full of crap and you don't even know it.
I didn't said science community prevented. I tried to say; community under soft pressure with pink glasses as i see.

Look where my "conspiracy" comes from:
Pharma industry wants to try its' drugs in safer locations. And, turkey of them as in article. And, the "mistakenly vaxxed babies event" seems like a pretty convenient event for further research in my eye. Of course to reach truth, and positive development for humankind.

And, please dont make me expand dialog between us. That causes me ban.
I only wanted to share 1 news above about moderna. That's all.
 
That is a very general article from 2010 about legitimate drug tests on large scale, because that's what it takes to test drugs. It has nothing to do with what may have or have not happened to one baby in Turkey in your stupid anecdote. (And no, I'm not reading your random Turkish articles. Translate and quote or don't post.)
But you prefer your stupid conspiracies instead of taking five minutes to think if they make sense because you want to believe in conspiracies.
Stop sharing "news", that would be best for all of us.

Edit: except for the general gullibility and childish notions about how the world organizations and states work, your belief in conspiracy theories could also be explained that you live in Turkey, the country where conspiracies spread unchecked.
Here's are some statistics for you to think about:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/interna...global-where-believe-conspiracy-theories-true
Turkey is basically the Mexico of Europe. Bannerlord needs a yellow filter.
 
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dijiTurk

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
Edit: except for the general gullibility and childish notions about how the world organizations and states work,
In my own childish opinion, world can be easly better.
Firstly, tryin to always be as the good character(not ugly) at known movie is what i'm looking for the best.
UwM9E.jpg

Because, this valuable approach can help world(including turkey) under the best/valuable protection.
oHhu2.jpg

I hope, my value focused childish ideas become more common at western areas(the areas where the values grows, and spread from, and need protection.. )
your belief in conspiracy theories could also be explained that you live in Turkey, the country where conspiracies spread unchecked.
Here's are some statistics for you to think about:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/interna...global-where-believe-conspiracy-theories-true
Turkey is basically the Mexico of Europe. Bannerlord needs a yellow filter.
I took a look at that survey-based research result(which should be checked in many respects as any research, but i assuming it was a properly reached research).



It shows that:

%41 of 506(?) people from Turkey think that humanity has made secret contact with alien visitors.
This is a difficult subject to research. You know, possible secret contact's elements can't be find easly to reasearch. So, when you can't find things that you can research, you easly can say it's a conspiracy.

Taking the "secret contact with alien visitors" as con.theory is fine to me.
The only thing is that this ratio comes from a survey. And, i dont like surveys. It can't show general image. It can make you fail. For example, when its 506 from ~80.000.000 .

%41 of 506 turkish person's idea is there is a secret contact. Not, turkey's.




Now, let me come to the topic related part, after the "secret contact" thinking.. :

First, i couldn't see sample size from greece, unlike turkey or france..(at methodology part of resaerch) . So, i take france to think with turkey.

"..conspiracy theory that pharmaceutical companies are hiding the harmful side effects of vaccines from the public.."

506x0,43 = 243 Turkish ppl at survey think that side-effects deliberately hidden.
1021x0,38 = 388 French ppl at survey think that side-effects deliberately hidden.

If i leave my value-focused, good characterist approach.. I can say that A higher number of French than Turks believe in the side-effect conspiracy theory.

But, not. This research (even if its purely perfect research as any one needs) only shows the rate of belief in the comp.theory among a small number of participants.
Also, this research doesn't reflect contries' common beliefs.

Lastly, vaccination subject is not like "secret contact with alliens" . If you are a good researcher go on a deep research, you can follow, and demand all elements of research in the field. Therefore, you can see if research has red flags or not. So, you can say that if some turkish kids believe to con.theory about new generation vaccine candidates, or not.


What kind of populist definition are these things below??

The populist cohort in the Globalism Project has been defined by The Guardian based on respondents who answered “strongly agree” to BOTH of the following statements:

“My country is divided between ordinary people and the corrupt elites who exploit them”


“The will of the people should be the highest principle in this country’s politics”

As i know, populist one is the lying one for his/her own interest with using populer subjects.. But, this definition above is very weird.
 
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