corona? :(

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The big question is if this pandemic is so severe that forcing vaccines on people who don't want it, is considered necessary to save lives.
...other good questions...
I think that your individual rights are not above the rights of the others not to be infected by you. We had years of expanding human rights while relaxing responsibilities, so much that people act like selfish babies whenever they are (rightly or wrongly) frustrated against the state.

The implicit vaccine mandate would have been an authoritarian overreach if it was taken outside of epidemic that devastates the economy and sometimes kills or maims people. It would be also okay against any other highly infectious or deadly (or both) disease. So either infectiousness or deadliness is a good criterion for making stuff obligatory.
Explicit vaccine mandates for government workers is also another measure coming up and it's been applied in several states by now. This is even more problematic constitutionally.

Whether regular flu vaccines could be mandated by the same logic, I'm not sure. Seasonal flus are much less infectious (and therefore not likely to turn into epidemics), although sometimes they can be quite deadly during some winters (but you know this stuff much better).
It opens a door for governments to force prophylactic measures on the population as long as it can be argued it saves lives.
That sounds problematic until you try to give an example. Mandatory influenza shots every winter? Washing your butthole when entering government offices, so they won't be grossed out when screwing you over?? :smile:
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
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That sounds problematic until you try to give an example. Mandatory influenza shots every winter? Washing your butthole when entering government offices, so they won't be grossed out when screwing you over?? :smile:
The same line of thought could be used as a way to make abortion illegal (and given recent events in the US, it really doesn't seem unrealistic to me to think that someone will try to make that argument at some point). That seems problematic to me.
 
The same line of thought could be used as a way to make abortion illegal (and given recent events in the US, it really doesn't seem unrealistic to me to think that someone will try to make that argument at some point). That seems problematic to me.
American (or more correctly Texan) problems. :smile:
The same people who want the government to punish abortions also don't want to be punished for spreading a virus.
If someone wants to make abortion an issue, they don't really need a mandatory vaccine precedent.
 

Adorno

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Abortion and vaccines are wildly different issues.

In the US a common flu season can easily kill about 30,000 people. And it's about the same in other countries, just adjust for population.
But I agree the issue is different because flu vaccines are already available. The issue here it typically to reach the most vulnerable and get them vaccinated. Not because people don't want it. The flu also goes away without quarantines, while covid keeps pounding us 24/7, 365.

(The ethical principle of not forcing people to take medical products is not a political left or right issue. It's common medical practice in the (free) world. Most people, left and right, support it).
 
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DanAngleland

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Well Madvader didn't say it was mandatory, just that a lot of public activities now required it. Another point I'd like to touch on, given that you mentioned children on the previous page I think Adorno; I was reading in the paper the other day that children can choose to have the vaccine against the wishes of their parents, on the proviso that they are deemed mentally capable of making a rational choice and have been given medical advice on the subject. This was in an article covering the ongoing debate in the UK about vaccinating children. Apparently this policy has been active for a few decades (and therefore relevant to all sorts of vaccines); I think it was settled upon in the 80s or 90s.
 

Adorno

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In France about 3000 health care workers have been fired for not being vaccinated. That comes close to 'mandatory', and certainly is, if you want to keep your job.
Personally, I think they're being reckless and endangering the lives of the very people they're supposed to care for. But it's their choice.
I've always received the flu vaccine every year (as nurse). Not for my sake. I get the sniffles, but if I infect a patient of mine he/she could die.
(I'm of course also covid-19 vaccinated).

Interesting about children and their wishes. It seems sensible when it's about their health.

 

Orion

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Explicit vaccine mandates for government workers is also another measure coming up and it's been applied in several states by now. This is even more problematic constitutionally.
Shouldn't be an issue in the US, but paradoxically it is. It's seen in the military already, where you're looking at minimum 11 (I think? Maybe 10) vaccinations just for signing up, and more depending on where you get sent (17+ for some people, and I hear the anthrax one is awful). The covid vaccine requirement is pushing some people out because they refuse to take it. At that point, what's one more? It isn't even as bad as some of the others they already took.
 

eddiemccandless

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Shouldn't be an issue in the US, but paradoxically it is. It's seen in the military already, where you're looking at minimum 11 (I think? Maybe 10) vaccinations just for signing up, and more depending on where you get sent (17+ for some people, and I hear the anthrax one is awful). The covid vaccine requirement is pushing some people out because they refuse to take it. At that point, what's one more? It isn't even as bad as some of the others they already took.
I find it incredibly mind baffling myself. Especially when the same people who refuse the vaccine have absolutely zero problem taking ivermectin or whatever the current fad is. I just don't get it and find it incredibly frustrating (especially since I have a person in my American family who I grew close to who is doing that).

I am getting to the point where I absolutely despise the people who are actively spreading this kind of disinformation. Not those who fell for it mind you (although sometimes it is difficult to see the difference), those are victims. But there are people who know very well that what they are spreading is bogus. I have always been against violence, but man being in a room alone with one of those individuals sure would put my conviction to the test.
 
Population of Alabama went down last year due to refusal to get vaccinated against COVID. Trump is losing supporters all over.
 

kurczak

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The "they're needlessly taking up hospital bed capacity and personnel man-hours" argument is the only that makes at least some sense for vaccine mandates and yes, the "well you don't HAVE TO take it, but you will get fired and can't go anywhere except maybe open public spaces" restrictions are vaccine mandates. There are already testing balloons saying that un-vaccinated people should be straight up denied health care for covid and related complications.

I'm looking forward to some sensible argument why this attitude shouldn't apply to obese people, alcoholics, smokers, junkies, anyone with STDs. Really, health care should only be for victims of violence and random accidents. But then again, did you HAVE to go outside and increase your risk of injury? You slipped up in the shower and you didn't have anti-slip mat? *Sucks teeth* that sounds like a you-problem, doesn't it?
 

Adorno

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I generally agree with you, but you're using poor examples. Getting a free vaccine that requires nothing more than showing up someplace is not comparable to obesity, STDs, or addictive drugs e.g. But the rhetoric of "they only have themselves to blame" is wrong.
Even suggesting unvaccinated people should be fired from their jobs (thousands already have been) or scapegoated (is that a word?) in health care is not okay. (Denied health care sounds like a human rights offense).
I would, however, like regular covid-19 tests for health care workers to be mandatory. Especially among the staff at elder care facilities.
 
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There are already testing balloons saying that un-vaccinated people should be straight up denied health care for covid and related complications.
No one serious ever says that, only random foolish people on the internet. But sure, it's a secret government plan right before they put the unvaccinated in concentration camps.
I'm looking forward to some sensible argument why this attitude shouldn't apply to obese people, alcoholics, smokers, junkies, anyone with STDs. Really, health care should only be for victims of violence and random accidents. But then again, did you HAVE to go outside and increase your risk of injury? You slipped up in the shower and you didn't have anti-slip mat? *Sucks teeth* that sounds like a you-problem, doesn't it?
Alcoholics can't get liver transplants because they'll ruin the liver again, and that's as far as that argument goes back in the real world of public healthcare.
 

eddiemccandless

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I'm looking forward to some sensible argument why this attitude shouldn't apply to obese people, alcoholics, smokers, junkies, anyone with STDs. Really, health care should only be for victims of violence and random accidents. But then again, did you HAVE to go outside and increase your risk of injury? You slipped up in the shower and you didn't have anti-slip mat? *Sucks teeth* that sounds like a you-problem, doesn't it?
Smokers pay a premium on American health insurances as I am sure you know. Everything else you say is about risk vs benefits for actions that are not necessarily under people's control. People can be obese because of genetics as much as behavior, mental health can play a role in addiction, walking outside is a necessary action and on average not that high risk etc.. There are some people that genuinely can not be vaccinated for health reasons and those obviously should not be penalized in any way. But for the others there absolutely zero rational reasons to avoid getting vaccinated.

I am honestly not a fan of vaccine mandates but this is getting to the point where I don't know that there's another choice. If 50% of the people who get into a car randomly started ramming it into people and things we'd probably have to start thinking about restrictions about car usage as well (in fact, you know, driver's licenses).

@Adorno @MadVader summed it up pretty well, except that of ALL the people she worked with only one died while being vaccinated and had extreme comorbidities. That's the one that got me. And reading estimates that show that 95 to 92% of the people who are dying of COVID now are unvaccinated, I find it infuriating that we could 100% be done with this if it wasn't for the disinformation madness.
 

kurczak

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I generally agre with you, but you're using poor examples. Getting a free vaccine that requires nothing more than showing up someplace is not comparable to obesity, STDs, or addictive drugs e.g. But the rhetoric of "they only have themselve to blame" is wrong.
Even suggesting unvaccinated people should be fired from their jobs (thousands already have been) or scapegoated (is that a word?) in health care is not okay. (Denied health care sounds like a human rights offense).
I would, however, like regular covid-19 tests for health care workers to be mandatory. Especially among the staff at elder care facilities.
If we are making "excuses" for fat people or addicts on account of mental health, we could make them for the anti-vaxers too :razz: What about people who get injured rock-climbing? Nobody NEEDS to go rock-climbing, do they, all you had to was simply not engage in a frivolous and risky behavior. Yeah, no two things are exactly identical, then they would be one thing, instead of two things. But there are still similarities.
No one serious ever says that, only random foolish people on the internet. But sure, it's a secret government plan right before they put the unvaccinated in concentration camps.

Alcoholics can't get liver transplants because they'll ruin the liver again, and that's as far as that argument goes back in the real world of public healthcare.
Yeah, hence "testing balloons" and not "official policy". Let's not play dumb and pretend that we don't know how these things work. Kimmel is not a random 15-followers fool on the internet. This is kind of a No True Scotsman combined with reverse Slippery Slope fallacy. It's just a massively watched tv show host, it's just a random party member, it's just a bunch of congressmen, it's just the undersecretary, it's just a minority of cabinet members, it's just a temporary executive order to flatten the curve, it's just a bill. Well yeah now it's a full-blown law, haha, oops. But you had no reason and evidence to be alarmed before and you were totally crazy and paranoid the whole time.

I'm not sure what the liver transplant bit was about. It's proving my point - that almost always we do provide health care to people who brought the problem on themselves through their action or inaction.
Smokers pay a premium on American health insurances as I am sure you know. Everything else you say is about risk vs benefits for actions that are not necessarily under people's control. People can be obese because of genetics as much as behavior, mental health can play a role in addiction, walking outside is a necessary action and on average not that high risk etc.. There are some people that genuinely can not be vaccinated for health reasons and those obviously should not be penalized in any way. But for the others there absolutely zero rational reasons to avoid getting vaccinated.
Generally speaking, I have no problem with premiums for smokers and I would have no problem for premiums for fat people, addicts, or anti-vaxxers as long as they are justified by insurance math and not a thinly-veiled punishment for its own sake.

There is the metabolic syndrome, that makes it hard to lose weight once you reach a certain level of bodyfat, and the absolute dog**** poison that is allowed (by the very same FDA, no less) to be sold as food is to blame too, but 99.99% of people who balloon up to 30+% of bodyfat do so through overeating and lack of movement. If you have negligible energy expenditure and you eat three, four thousand calories a day, it can be the cleanest, most raw and organic food in the world, but you will become obese all the same, just over a somewhat longer period of time. How many hospital beds and man-hours are spent on all the heart attacks, and diabetes complications? And not only are they not denied any health care, we even have a massive obesity normalization media campaign going on.

There is absolutely zero reason for people to do a lot of things that they do, but we still respect that they people are ends in themselves, and therefore endowed with autonomy to do dumb things. Sure, the autonomy is not infinite, but things like (de-facto) covid-vaccine mandates, let alone the, yes at the moment hypothetical, denial of health care to the covid-unvaccinated, do not pass the proportionality test when compared to other behavior that we do allow.
 
Yeah, hence "testing balloons" and not "official policy". Let's not play dumb and pretend that we don't know how these things work. Kimmel is not a random 15-followers fool on the internet. This is kind of a No True Scotsman combined with reverse Slippery Slope fallacy. It's just a massively watched tv show host, it's just a random party member, it's just a bunch of congressmen, it's just the undersecretary, it's just a minority of cabinet members, it's just a temporary executive order to flatten the curve, it's just a bill. Well yeah now it's a full-blown law, haha, oops. But you had no reason and evidence to be alarmed before and you were totally crazy and paranoid the whole time.
So Kimmel was approached by Biden admin staffers to float a terrible idea that everyone would hate? AFAIK trial balloons are floated in politicians' speeches and journalist articles, not some funny guy cracking jokes. You are just being paranoid and hostile to a Democrat government.
Unless you have some kind of proof or indication that it's a trial balloon, this is just conspiracy mongering.

Does this really look like a trial balloon to anyone? Give me a break.
“Vaccinated person having a heart attack? Yes, come right in, we’ll take care of you. Unvaccinated guy who gobbled horse goo? Rest in peace, wheezy.”
He added, “We’ve still got a lot of pan-dimwits out there.”

I'm not sure what the liver transplant bit was about. It's proving my point - that almost always we do provide health care to people who brought the problem on themselves through their action or inaction.
The transplant denial policy was about the extreme cases where public healthcare is being denied, as an example where are its ethical borders (=far from discriminating against the unvaxxed).
 
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Adorno

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... Yeah, no two things are exactly identical, then they would be one thing, instead of two things. But there are still similarities.
I'm saying there are no similarities. But let's leave it. I think we agree everyone should be treated, no matter the etiology.
 

eddiemccandless

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@kurczak I honestly agree with you in principle. I am however also extremely tired of the absolute insanity that is vaccine fearmongering. And I don't think that your reasoning quite holds, just based on the fact that (i) None of the examples that you bring up overwhelm hospitals to the point that other people are unable to get the care they need and (ii) it is virtually impossible to distinguish between someone who is overweight because of reasons outside of their control and someone who is not taking care of themselves, while it is quite easy to distinguish between an antivaxxer and someone who can't take the vaccine because of health reasons.

Ultimately though I don't think that the people who refuse the vaccine are necessarily to blame. I see most of them as victims of a scam. It could have been me had I lived a different life.

Now with all of that said, I am really curious to know how you feel about the whole Texas abortion thing and the way they went about it, given your thoughts about this.
 
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