Controlled Exothermic Reactions propelling the...

Should firearms be implemented in to M&B/M&B2?

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  • Yes (M&B2)

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  • Yes (Both)

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  • No (Both)

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Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
READ THIS BEFORE VOTING, PLEASE!

Controlled Exothermic Reactions Propelling the lead ball forward at an extreme velocity in order to achieve ultimate head shot pwn-ness.

Basicaly... guns. I believe it was Nairagorn who said in the "New weapons you would want" (somethin like that) thread, that guns WERE used at the time the plate armor was at it's peak. Basically, we could have some long rifles.. well, they wouldn't be rifles cause back then they didn't have rifled barrels... anyways. These... Firearms, I guess, would be innaccurate, but would do devestating damage, much more than the crossbow. They would also require 3 equipment slots. You would need your powder, your shot, and your gun. This leaves only one slot, for a melee weapon preferably. They would be extremely expensive, as well. The worst one, with perhaps 60 pierce damage, would cost 10k. The best one, doing around 80 pierce damage (guns are powerful, you know) would cost about 50k. Expensive, but you have an extremely long reload time and really low accuracy. The only good thing is the power of the weapon. One shot to the chest would probably kill most enemies. If the enemy was charging at you, you could get off one shot, two, maybe three if you're on a hilltop. But before you could reload again you would need to pull out that trusty Sword O' War and get to swingin. There could even be a new level for your units. Seargents would upgrade to Gunnery Seargent (Hartman!), vaegier and swadian marksmen would upgrade to riflemen, and Knights would upgrade in to Crusaders or something, since melee weapons were still widely used when guns were first made. (Time period for Crusaders is probably way off for this game, but I wouldn't know.)

Anyways... there could also be 1 handed guns, that have a lower reload time, but also lower damage. The better the gun, the bigger the caliber, the more powder needed to propell the ball, meaning.. basicaly.. longer reload times. Best gun would be the slowest firing weapon in the game, while the weakest pistol would be the fastest gun.

Nairagorn seems to think guns were used when plates were still around, and seeing as how this is a game, and not a "European Knight Simulation," we could have guns and keep it realistic.

Don't flame me for this. I'll even add a poll. It will probably be 99% no, but I don't care.
 
You're right. It's No, No, No and also no.
just... no.

It's probably one of those things Armagan made adamant before he started making this game. I think it would someow ruin the feeling. Just like majick would.
 
One thing you aren't thinking about is that guns showed up where gun powder first showed up... China....

The setting is no where near china.... It doesn't jive.

If this was set in asia I'd buy it, but all the weapons and armour would change...

You didn't see the chinese army running around plate mail. This is more an eastern europe type setting.

Now for a .mod I'd buy it, but not in it's current form.

Besides, guns had absolutely horrible accuracy back then... you'd be lucky to hit a guy at ten paces with most fire arms... Nothing I mean nothing had any type of range and accuracy to compete with bows and crossbows until they started rifling the barrels of guns... And that didn't take place until much much later in history.

If you had an army of 50 gunners and 20 crossbowmen I'd place the money on the crossbow men... Besides Guns take a whole lot longer to reload than an arrow or bolt. I could fire 6 arrows into a guy before he had his next shot reloaded.
 
fleshtone, I explained all of that in my post. I bet you didn't even read my post, just ****in voted. It even says in big BOLD LETTERS to READ BEFORE VOTING.

Dumbass. Lurn 2 red wif Huked un Foniks.
 
No dude I read your whole post, I was giving you my reasons for thinking it wasn't feasible. You might want to avoid flying off the handle just because I mentioned a few of the same points in my post. I tried to elaborate on your own ideas...

Don't take things personally just because I didn't agree with you.

Relax...

Remember it's just a game, and these are only my ideas.

It's ok if we share the same ones.... Sheesh

Sorry for posting a rebuttal, I know that this isn't what this thread is for... :smile:
 
I generaly hate people who just repeat things that they hear...

thats why I can't stand the Harry Potter movies :shock:

He's always repeating things... argh! It's annoying!

(btw... No offense, fleshtone, I've just been up for about 32 hours straight with nothing but diet coke to keep me awake... I've also been yelled at quite a few times by parents.)
 
Another thing that repeating that is annoying is always commenting obvious things! in almost every fantasy book there is like "rock lies ahead whit enemies around" in that point hero is like "- ARRGH WHAT WE DO THERE IS ENEMY WHIT ARMOR AND HE ALSO HAS SWORD WE HAVE ALSO SHIELD AND SWORD SHOULD WE DO THIS AND THIS blah blah blah"
 
Orion said:
I've also been yelled at quite a few times by parents.)

Maybe you should mind your parents and they wouldn't need to yell at you.

As far as firearms - keep them out. There are more important things for Armagan to implement - let him focus on those. Leave firearms to the folks that want to mod them in.
 
I think firearms will not be included in the stock game. However, I'm sure they will be easily modded in. After all, they were inthe game, but removed because they didn't quite fit the medieval theme.

I would personally like to see guns in the game. more like a hand-cannon or matchlock than an m-16 tho :wink:

And firearms, along with full plate armor were products to the 1600s. Early guns would be no more out of place than the plate armor is.
 
exactly :smile:

I don't wanna go charging in to a group of 50 dark knights while gunning them down with an M16, prepared to pull out my Colt 1911A1 if my M16 runs out of ammo.

I want, as Nairagorn said, matchlocks and things like those. Just because they were in Japan before Europe doesn't mean that they first arrived in Europe in 1800's. The 17th century saw it's fair share of guns, however crappy they were. Besides, a nice matchlock would be nice against a lone charging horseman. You could take him out in a single shot, unlike with bows where you have the chance of not getting a headshot, and therefore need to notch another arrow before firing, and by the time you do that more cavalry could be on top of you, or the infantry could have caught up. Whereas if you shot the guy with a gun, you could kill him with a single hit. If, that is, you hit him. That's why you wait till he's about 5 feet from you, then you pull the trigger lol. I just wanna click my mouse.. hear a click in game. Wait a second.... and THEN hear the boom :smile: Cause that's how they worked. Flintlocks, I think. Those were later tho...

I own a Kentucky Longrifle-style muzzleloader, percussion action, and the thing is almost 5 feet tall. I know lots about Civil War and Revolutionary War-time guns, and a little about the older ones, such as... 17th century.

They sucked ass, but they still fired a projectile at high speeds, capable of penetrating armor. If you take a blunt object and make it travel at 250 FPS (feet per second) it will tear through something. Now if you don't mind, I'll go fondle my revolvers.

hmph!

P.S. **** off ace. Not my fault they can't sleep when i do and can't be awake when I am. Lots of times my mom is up till 2 in the morning doing things on the computer, and it generaly keeps me awake, cause she plays music a lot. Then, I'm tired as hell, and finaly get to sleep, just to wake up and realize I've been asleep for over 12 hours. Then, I'm up till 2 in the morning, still fully awake, and they yell at me to get off. Then I watch a DVD, by then im pretty tired but if not, my dad leaves at 5:20 or so, i can get on the comp and tell my mom that he woke me up on his way out.

However... being told what to do over an online forum seriously pisses me off. ESPECIALY if I'm already pissed off at other things going on, like right now. Just be a decent person, and respect me by NOT ordering me around.

Got it? Thanks.
 
I am not 100% sure but didnt they have simple cannons on boats at 1500 already? and first rifles whit useless aim and speed that couldnt get through armor at 1600?
 
ok. Imagine 250 feet. Now, imagine a small lead ball traveling that distance in a second. That ball is traveling faster than an arrow, and is therefore more capable of puncturing armor than an arrow, even bodkins. Explosions are :lol: powerful things :lol: and they can propell an object at extremely high speeds. That's how fragmentation grenades work. There are 2 spheres in a fragmentation grenade, the outer one, and the inner one. The inner one is metal. There are also metal shards between outer and inner, depending on the type of fragmentation grenade. Inside the inner sphere is an explosive charge, which, when detonated, Fragments the metal sphere, and propells the shards outwards, creating shrapnell, which hurts like a *****. Claymores (mines, not swords) do the same thing but blow the fragments in one direction.

If a lead ball was travelling 250 ft/s, and, even though lead is a soft metal, hit an iron or steel plate, it would more than likely puncture the plate or dent it beyond use. Either way, the concussive force of it would drive you back.
 
Guns definitely would not be out-of-period based on the armor and suchlike in the game, assuming Calradia follows an Earth-like technological progression. The hand-held guns in existence then would not be at all unbalancing, just as they weren't some uber-dominating force in 1400-1500. They would not have to kill in one hit if a hack with a broadsword doesn't, which it doesn't.

Still, no.
 
Orion said:
P.S. **** off ace. Not my fault they can't sleep when i do and can't be awake when I am. Lots of times my mom is up till 2 in the morning doing things on the computer, and it generaly keeps me awake, cause she plays music a lot. Then, I'm tired as hell, and finaly get to sleep, just to wake up and realize I've been asleep for over 12 hours. Then, I'm up till 2 in the morning, still fully awake, and they yell at me to get off. Then I watch a DVD, by then im pretty tired but if not, my dad leaves at 5:20 or so, i can get on the comp and tell my mom that he woke me up on his way out.

However... being told what to do over an online forum seriously pisses me off. ESPECIALY if I'm already pissed off at other things going on, like right now. Just be a decent person, and respect me by NOT ordering me around.

Got it? Thanks.

Nice attitude, kid. No wonder your parents yell at you. Just be thankful they don't put you over their knee and give you a good paddling like you deserve.

Maybe someday you'll learn to appreciate your parents and all they do for you. At the moment, I don't hold out much hope of you ever reaching that level of maturity.
 
250 ft/s is roughly 76 m/s. The projectile would be much heavier, but modern rifle bullets fly five times faster (over the speed of sound 333 m/s), which basically means 25 times more kinetic energy compared to projectile of equivalent mass, or equivalent to a projectile 25 times heavier. While still packing more power than an arrow, it would on a direct hit dent armor, but I find penetration unlikely, and in any case, it would not kill immediately. A hit on the helmet could knock the target out, but not kill.

And no, knocking someone back is Hollywood crap. Force equals counter-force, so if it would knock the a charging target, back, it'd throw the (stationary) person firing the weapon into smithreens.

And my opinion (which no one asked, of course) is no. To me, the target era seems to be around 14th or 15th ct, 17th ct weapons would be two hundred years ahead of their time.
 
*ahem* in about 1500 if I remember right they didnt anymore use normal plate armors on combant because Long Bows at that time was able to penetrate them. Dunno then about those really heavy armors that can only be used in horseback.
 
i did some digging and found this out about each of our friends in question

longbow

45 mps
.075kg

arquebus

350 mps
.015kg

a little physics equation tells me that

(mass)(velocity)=momentum

longbow

mass = .075 kg
velocity = 45 mps
momentum = 3.375

arquebus
mass = .015kg
velocity = 350
momentum = 5.25


so now when you break it down, an aruebus will hit with

1.55 times as much momentum as an arrow.

But...

here is the important part.

An arrow head is made of something hard like steel, and a arquebus shot was made of lead.

The force of impact is a hard thing to figure because we don't know how much the shot would squish and flatten, and when would the armor break open under the stress of impact of an arrow....

An easy way to visualize it would be to imagine being hit by a 2x4 of wood and a dart

the dart is going to pierce you and the 2x4 is going to knock you on your butt...


bibliography: (for the fact checkers)

http://www.drizzle.com/~celyn/jherek/16thMilSci.pdf
http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html


ps.... i don't know why I wasted a whole half an hour researching this, but i was bored and i hadn't used my physics skill in years... hehehe
 
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