Constructive Criticism

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Nerius

Sergeant
I'm loving this mod. It's the reason why I play M&B; M&B is the reason why I have Windows on a Mac. So, with that said:

I'm wondering how much realism is being really applied here. I feel, that the modifications are a huge step towards realism, but perhaps it is not really complete.

What I'm saying is that there is still room for improvement, especially in the armor department - and especially for the AI. Not just what is available for oneself and companions, but recruits as well and most importantl. I.E.:

-New recruits shouldn't be in a shirt & without proper foot gear. They're recruits, recently hired as conscripts. By definition, they should have minimal armor & weaponry. Recruits without some armor padding, boots, gloves, headgear (even if it is all really crappy material) are completely unrealistic.

-Nords shouldn't be 110% relying on axes. Vikins also used swords & spears a whole lot. Eliminating some sword usage from them should knock them down a bit.

-Rhodoks are completely gimped. Revamp pl0x.

-Haven't fought Vaegris/Khanate/Swadians yet. Once I do I will update them as well, but the gear part probably applies here as well.

Keep u pthe awesome work! :smile: <3
 
Actualy, new recruits should be wearing shirts, notice the guy with the brown shirt stabing another guy in the blue shirt with a spear - http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf3/otm3va.gif .Or here, a mob of angry peasents: http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf13/otm13rb.gif . The recruits are basicly that, angry peasents with spears and sticks. Also gloves waren't a common thing in middle-ages. Even in the whole Maciejowski bible, you would only notice a few of them on the lower tier soldiers. :smile:

I agree about the nords. Spears should be most popular weapon.

There aren't many of problems with Rohdoks, if you ask me. Offcourse, except the lack of a proper infantry unit.

Just my 2cents :smile:
 
Nerius, how do you know what peasants and recruits have weared in those times? I think they are all only your subjective impressions and speculations.  :???:

By my opinion there is  a small variety of shields and weapons in mod. And I think by sabres could be stabbed quite comfortably and not only cut. I don't understand why stabbing was removed from most sabres in M&B mods .  :???:   
 
Nord spears were used a lot, not necesarily by a shield wall, but because you could stab at someone's face from 6-7 feet away - therefore making them put their shield in front of their face and blocking their view, and then quickly stab somewhere else before they can react properly.

So what we need is a 1-hand fighting spear that is actually a lot quicker than current pole-arm spears. Then the range can be reduced a bit, since it's not a hrose back spear, and presto! Nordic spear!

As for those illustrations:
On the first one,y ou're clearly not seeing the big picture. The guys dressed in whire with dots: that's padded armor. They are fighting inside a tent. Notice to the right the guy with a swor din his handa nd his padded cloth by his shoulder, running away. That means they got caught with their pants down at their camp. Then notice eveyrone else in full armor. 1 group was ready, 1 group wasn't.

Padded cloth went under the layer of chainmail. So padded cloth would be for either a recruit or under a knight. Therefore, it is indistinguishable to note which ones inside the tents are knights and which ones aren't because they're all NOT DRESSED for battle. Some are even putting on their chain mail before the enemy gets to them!
otm3va.gif


On the second one, you're not seeing the big picture (again). 1st, notice the first man to the left; looking at the heavens with something in his hands - that's an offering to God. 2nd, notice the angel on top. He's delivering the word of God. 3rd, notice the man in armor with a medieval hearing aid on his ear: he's listening to the word of God & his message. He's acting on that message, therefore giving arms to peasants. That would be an illustration of the Crusades.


I have a major in History. Medieval western European (mainly Iberian & Italian) history actually. :smile:
otm13rb.gif


 
Rad said:
Nerius, how do you know what peasants and recruits have weared in those times? I think they are all only your subjective impressions and speculations.  :???:

By my opinion there is  a small variety of shields and weapons in mod. And I think by sabres could be stabbed quite comfortably and not only cut. I don't understand why stabbing was removed from most sabres in M&B mods .  :???: 

Peasant's never fought as peasants. They were conscripted into the private army of the Feudal Lord or King (or the Feudal Lord serving the King). After the battle, he needed to go work the land of his Lord again. It was in the Lord's interest to actually improve his troops' survival time.

Please refer yourself & read the following websites for accurate descriptions of soldier's armor (not knights, soliders):

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/4213/thirteenth.html
http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/13th_century_fighting_equipment
13th Century:

ARMOUR: Full helmets protecting Locations 3 and 5 (with mail on Location 4) are common, although many still wear helmets without faceplates (Location 5, with mail on Location 4). The best suits of mail now have hand protection as well, completing the protection to all parts of the body. Towards the middle and end of the 13th Century the great helm (full helmet) appears, protecting Locations 3-5. Also towards the end of the 13th Century body armor of cuir boulli (covering Locations 10-12) is worn to supplement mail. Although uncommon, similar reinforcements were sometimes worn to protect the legs (Locations 14-17, only from attacks in front)

Infantry may be equipped with a simple hauberk and kettle hat. Quilted aketons (covering Locations 6-14) are common, as are sleeveless versions (Locations 9-14). Some aketons are equipped with a high raised collar (protecting Location 4) to supplement the kettle hat. Infantry generally used no leg defenses. Unarmored missile troops, were fairly common.
http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Armor/armor.html
 
Nerius said:
I have a major in History. Medieval western European (mainly Iberian & Italian) history actually. :smile:

First thing first. I have to say, that you have a great specialy as your major. I'm actualy quite jelous of you now. I was thinking of having history as my major, but things went in a diffrent direction for me :smile:

Nerius said:
Nord spears were used a lot, not necesarily by a shield wall, but because you could stab at someone's face from 6-7 feet away - therefore making them put their shield in front of their face and blocking their view, and then quickly stab somewhere else before they can react properly.

In theory, in reality not realy. Actualy, if you manage to get closer to a spear wielder with a shorter meele weapon - say an axe or a sword, he's doomed, unless the spearwielder has a side arm. Spear is most effective in a formation. But offcourse it all comes to the ability and luck of the soldier himself.

Nerius said:
On the first one,y ou're clearly not seeing the big picture. The guys dressed in whire with dots: that's padded armor. They are fighting inside a tent. Notice to the right the guy with a swor din his handa nd his padded cloth by his shoulder, running away. That means they got caught with their pants down at their camp. Then notice eveyrone else in full armor. 1 group was ready, 1 group wasn't.

Padded cloth went under the layer of chainmail. So padded cloth would be for either a recruit or under a knight. Therefore, it is indistinguishable to note which ones inside the tents are knights and which ones aren't because they're all NOT DRESSED for battle. Some are even putting on their chain mail before the enemy gets to them!

Yes, the one's with the doted cloth are wearing gambeson, but i will repeat my self. Look at the man wearing a brown shirt and stabing the blue person with a spear. No gambeson,just a shirt, an arming cap and a spear. I presume, becouse the attackers are coming from the left side, those 4 four "peasents" masacaring the UNARMORED person in the blue shirt is actualy the attackers, who camed prepared. Or in other words, the man in the brown shirt is wearing all of his gear.

otm3va.th.gif


About the second picture. The four peasents on the right. I presumed, that there are in there combat gear? If so, they are not equiped with any padded armor either.

I provided those pictures as a source to counter-argument you, that not every peasent would  have "basic" defensive equipment.

Nerius said:
Peasant's never fought as peasants. They were conscripted into the private army of the Feudal Lord or King (or the Feudal Lord serving the King). After the battle, he needed to go work the land of his Lord again. It was in the Lord's interest to actually improve his troops' survival time.

Don't forget, that armor was expensive in that time and the lord had to equip himself, his sons(presumedly he had a few) and perhaps his closest house servants/guards(to act as bodyguards). Besides, not  every lord where rich. Thats why most of the lowier tier troops had to equip them selfs.

Besides, if you think about it from the medieval view - peasents are expendable, but you are not. So why arm a bunch of low-birth peasents, when you can buy your self a better, fashionable helmet (for example) or just spend all the gold on ale/wine and wenches? :smile:
 
DrTomas said:
In theory, in reality not realy. Actualy, if you manage to get closer to a spear wielder with a shorter meele weapon - say an axe or a sword, he's doomed, unless the spearwielder has a side arm. Spear is most effective in a formation. But offcourse it all comes to the ability and luck of the soldier himself.

No, no. In reality. They also had swords, you know. But for skirmishing, they always had the first blow. That first blow made you block, and gave him time to move back, to the left or the right. It stopped you on your tracks, and maybe it gave time to his buddy to position himself to your other side. Then you're surrounded and that = dead.

DrTomas said:
Yes, the one's with the doted cloth are wearing gambeson, but i will repeat my self. Look at the man wearing a brown shirt and stabing the blue person with a spear. No gambeson,just a shirt, an arming cap and a spear. I presume, becouse the attackers are coming from the left side, those 4 four "peasents" masacaring the UNARMORED person in the blue shirt is actualy the attackers, who camed prepared. Or in other words, the man in the brown shirt is wearing all of his gear.

Do you really expect a medieval artist to render you a completely explanatory picture of everyone? Please, you're torturing that picture to the extreme to make a point.

As for the rest, you armed peasants with shields, weapon & padded cloth or thick leather. Not chainmail. Vikings always armed themselves, they had no "peasants", so the nord faction should have everyone armed with something.

This is 1257; not 750 AD. Kingdoms were pretty well established by this time. This is the middle ages, not the dark ages. You're thinking 500 years back. Kings had the money to field an army with armor + weapons. Chainmail, by this point, had been around for a long, long time. It isn't that it was quite common, there was a lot of it for the armies. It was old and in bad condition, but there. By this point, the rich had already started to put platemail on the elbows & knees and neck. They werent considering the best mail but a combination now. So it's not exactly as it is painted in this mod, although this mod is 1000% clloser than the actual game.
 
Nerius said:
No, no. In reality. They also had swords, you know. But for skirmishing, they always had the first blow. That first blow made you block, and gave him time to move back, to the left or the right. It stopped you on your tracks, and maybe it gave time to his buddy to position himself to your other side. Then you're surrounded and that = dead.

I can't say that you're wrong. :smile: But i still believe that in survival in melee combat goes to many factors: luck, the ability of the individual soldier, his equipment, how many buddies you have with you, etc. Hey, you might be lucky and survive your provided situation with no or just a few minor scratches! Or an unarmed peasent might survive a duel with a full armored knight just by accidentally stabbing him into the eye - lucky that. :smile:

Nerius said:
Do you really expect a medieval artist to render you a completely explanatory picture of everyone? Please, you're torturing that picture to the extreme to make a point.

Well, in middle ages they usually draw what they saw. So, someone saw a soldier, armed as poorly as that - and here you go, he's drawned there like that. If they did draw it, why then there couldn't be soldiers equipped as poorly as him?


Nerius said:
This is 1257; not 750 AD. Kingdoms were pretty well established by this time. This is the middle ages, not the dark ages. You're thinking 500 years back. Kings had the money to field an army with armor + weapons. Chainmail, by this point, had been around for a long, long time. It isn't that it was quite common, there was a lot of it for the armies. It was old and in bad condition, but there. By this point, the rich had already started to put platemail on the elbows & knees and neck. They werent considering the best mail but a combination now. So it's not exactly as it is painted in this mod, although this mod is 1000% clloser than the actual game.

Sure he had the money and perhaps even enough equipment/money to form a solid equipped backbone of an army. But the king/lord wasn't directly responsible for arming every men in his domain - i doubt that he would be very interested in spending money and arming peasants, when he can hire mercenaries(what was very common in XIV - XV centuries and a bit more rare at XIIIth.) or equip his own man more heavily. That's why everyone would had to bring his one equipment. Now I'm not saying, that every peasent who was mustard for war had only a shirt and a spear. Offcourse no, but some would be. I wouldn't be suprise, that some of the peasentry would have, lets say, chainmail, that he removed from a dead knight/man-at-arms after some battle.

And offcourse, people who made there living out of war well - nobility, man-at-arms were better equipped.

Now in game see no reason, why would tier 1 soldiers shouldn't represent the poorest and the lowest peasants, who had little to none training in arms nor had proper equipment.

In addition, i have to notice how easy it is to imagine knights and soldiers, who had good equipment, probably because theres plenty of iconographic and other material left from those ages, which mostly features the nobility. But when it comes to lower soldiers, it relays more on interpretations, probably because no one really cared to write/draw them too often as no one really give a crap about them :smile:
 
DrTomas said:
I can't say that you're wrong. :smile: But i still believe that in survival in melee combat goes to many factors: luck, the ability of the individual soldier, his equipment, how many buddies you have with you, etc. Hey, you might be lucky and survive your provided situation with no or just a few minor scratches! Or an unarmed peasent might survive a duel with a full armored knight just by accidentally stabbing him into the eye - lucky that. :smile:

I forget which country in northern/north-eastern europe where the peasants devised a weapon on a stick, that basically had hooks on it (like 8-16 hooks). They used ti to grab a knight by the creases in his armor and pull him down. Try to get up with 6 dude around you with sticks & 80 pounds of armor on you - impossible.

the concept of everyone using swords and hammers is widely a misperception. Only in places like Iberia or the middle east did the sword be as important. In europe, the mace & spear were that much more useful due to the heavy armor. It's about out-tactically beating your oponent. You were already not counting on killing him in 1 slice. :sad:

DrTomas said:
Well, in middle ages they usually draw what they saw. So, someone saw a soldier, armed as poorly as that - and here you go, he's drawned there like that. If they did draw it, why then there couldn't be soldiers equipped as poorly as him?

They could very well be a peasant, a squire, who knows. Point being that it wasn't the norm, it was the exception. Unarmored people were commonly archers during battles. People barely raided, and raiders were armored. Mount & Blade is more of a raid game than an actual army/battle game. Hence my insistence on armor being existent since it's all a bunch of raiding parties.

DrTomas said:
Now in game see no reason, why would tier 1 soldiers shouldn't represent the poorest and the lowest peasants, who had little to none training in arms nor had proper equipment.

No such thing as a tier 1 soldier IRL. Only solders & non-soldiers. :razz:

Edit: Booya for spearz!
Despite the adulation and reverence given to the sword, the spear was generally the weapon of choice for Vikings.
 
Nerius said:
I forget which country in northern/north-eastern europe where the peasants devised a weapon on a stick, that basically had hooks on it (like 8-16 hooks). They used ti to grab a knight by the creases in his armor and pull him down. Try to get up with 6 dude around you with sticks & 80 pounds of armor on you - impossible.

the concept of everyone using swords and hammers is widely a misperception. Only in places like Iberia or the middle east did the sword be as important. In europe, the mace & spear were that much more useful due to the heavy armor. It's about out-tactically beating your oponent. You were already not counting on killing him in 1 slice. :sad:

Axes(atleast the ones that was commonly used in early middle ages.) is also a good choice for grabs and pulls. Especially two-handeds in formations for grabbing a shield and making your opponent open so someone else could get his axe to his head. While one handed might be usefull for pulling in a duel, in a formation, two-handed would be more effective- less risky of loosing your arm or head while trying perform the pull :mrgreen:

Nerius said:
They could very well be a peasant, a squire, who knows. Point being that it wasn't the norm, it was the exception. Unarmored people were commonly archers during battles. People barely raided, and raiders were armored. Mount & Blade is more of a raid game than an actual army/battle game. Hence my insistence on armor being existent since it's all a bunch of raiding parties.

I see your point. Then again, they can be those who are quickly mustered up to counter such a raid from the enemy - that would be correct, right? Besides they usually get upraged very quickly, especially if you have someone in your party with the high enough trainer skill - so I see no harm having them, nor that being a historical inaccuracy. But hey - that's only me. :smile:

Nerius said:
No such thing as a tier 1 soldier IRL. Only solders & non-soldiers. :razz:

Hehe, aye. But i was talking in-game terms :smile:
Besides, perhaps I consider mound and blade to be RL :grin:

Nerius said:

Yep, back then spears in warfare were like pop music today :lol:
 
AND effective!

The vikings made it a ****ing artform to use spears in open skirmishing warfare. They were msotly successful because of that range. Running into someone and stabbing them a lot further than they could = win. If **** went bad, you could throw it and unsheath your sword which is also = win. Finally, makeshift phalanxes with vikings is incredibly ****ing awesome - and deadly! This tactic the English applied in the Battle of Agincourt, in 1415 (158 years after this game) and coupled with badass Longbowmen, they sat at their defensive position while heavy armored cavalry couldn't break the line. Heavily armed french cavalry, 158 years later, couldn't break a makeshift phalanx of 8 foot spears while backed by bows.

Do you know what a french cavalry man was like? A french ****ing can of whoop-ass wrapped inside a sherman tank! These guys were bad ass, trained for warfare since the age of 7-12, constantly since the age of 12-13, and were covered in plate - their horses covered in plate. Not just douchbag mail armor, full plated ****-wagons. Can't break a line of mail + shield + spear. Mind you these weren't Swiss Pikemen either! Spears were 25% longer than a man, not much else.

Finally, like I was saying: raiding parties were prepared. In 1257, unless it is a peasant uprising or something of the sort, I'd be skeptical about finding unarmored people in the battle field. Even if it looks like clothes, padded cloth and leather was painted over with colors (so that you'd know who was who) but, please, reason with this: who the **** would charge into a battle on a wool shirt? That'd have to be ****ing insane!

MNon-realistic. Morale would drop to -097786554 and people would be like "**** you Im learning french!". :razz:
 
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