Concept for Battle mode and general gameplay discussion

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The last major update for bannerlord multiplayer will be the inclusion of battle mode "1 life mode" into the game

this is the last chance for bannerlord to get their vanilla multiplayer of the game right (even if they do mess this up custom servers will fix it but it will not have the ability to use the matchmaking system which is very important)

I believe that battle mode should be centered around a single round instead of multiple rounds, this way when you die you can just leave the game and enter matchmaking again (battle mode was made for matchmaking) to quickly find a new game

another benefit to the single round mechanic is for balancing, without the additional resources gained from a previous round, every game would start equally

instead of the flag system (which encourages silly gameplay mechanics like camping on the flag to win instead of focusing on the actual battle) bannerlord should consider a restricting map size concept similar to fortnite and other battle royal games (however instead of the map reducing in size randomly it could reduce it's size based around the center mass of the map, meaning if two armies are facing off against each other the map would reduce towards the center of the two armies; this would encourage more battle orientated gameplay and still have the benefits of a constricting map size to expedite the battle)

bannerlord needs some realistic combat changes

one of the most important changes are centered around movement speed and armor functionality

when mount and blade: warband first entered beta testing all movement speeds were the same (i have heard), after some feedback from players the developers reduced the movement speed of archers to prevent kiting; i believe this was a mistake, this artificial additive helped deal with the issue of kiting archers but also introduced one of the first unrealistic game mechanics into the series and didn't solve the issue directly (the archer class shouldn't have been slowed as a whole, rather the equipment the archers had should have a movement penalty; meaning the quivers itself would slow you down because it would realistically be harder to run with arrows bouncing up in down in your quiver)

by having this artificial mechanic in the game (archers being unable to run as fast as infantry with similar armor even without holding any weapons/equipment at all) you would have frustrating scenarios such as being unable to fight effectively in combat as an archer (due to being surrounded by multiple opponents) or being unable to retreat

the affect of this situation led to archers being over powered in their armor penetration (with arrows, crossbows being able to mostly ignore armor is realistic)to make up for their inability to move normally in order to try to balance their class

this artificial arrow penetration balance made armor less useful and boosted the importance of archers in battles

cavalry also have a movement speed penalty (on foot) which has attempted to be balanced by having powerful mount mechanics such as the bump slash (where you would be unable to block a strike because of a stun the horse would cause by bumping you, thankfully it is less prevalent in bannerlord but it is still there) and an unrealistically hard to kill horse (an armored horse should be tough to kill but the unarmored horse needs a slight debuff in hitpoints, not that the hit points are the most concerning balance issue, rather the bump slash is)

these two balance issues were prevalent in warband but bannerlord has now gone towards a more unrealistic battle situation by adding "perks"

these perks change the basic combat (movement speed included) mechanics of the game by adding non-logical augments to players abilities (such as damage/speed modifiers) this had led to illogical gameplay scenarios where players do not know the capabilities of their opponent so you may have a player do "100%" additional damage to your mount for no logical reason at all or be outrun by a heavily armored opponent bc he had the "7% additional movement speed" perk

these concepts belong in games like world of warcraft because those games are focused around mathematical builds and not realistic combat mechanics

when you introduce these differentiating combat abilities you are encouraging frustrating non-logical combat scenarios where you can be outrun by heavily armored infantry (as a lightly armored infantry) or be killed by someone with an artificially boosted strike where you would otherwise survive

this concept of differential ability is contrary to fun gameplay mechanics

what is great about the mount and blade experience is that you beat any player with any weapon if you are good enough and adding these artificial modifiers takes away from that

when you are adding these differentials you are stating "given completely equal player ability this player will win in this situation because he chose this option in their loadout"

this, in theory, would be fine but by having these options that change game mechanics you are often put in situations where you can't choose a universal option for survival, for example you can either choose a spear (which has an additional damage modifier against mounts so if you do not choose this perk you cannot just pick a spear off the battle field and fight similarly; more specifically the spear without that damage modifier is more likely to "whiff" where it doesn't do enough damage to an opponent to stun them and they can ignore your attack and kill you) or choose movement speed bonus(which is essential to combat, by being able to run away in unwinnable situations etc). Not having the ability to perform both of these functions result in you dying to whichever situation you did not specialize in, so either being surrounded because you didn't choose the movement speed penalty or being killed by cavalry bc you didn't have the damage modifier from the spear perk

the concept of a guaranteed death without the player's ability to affect the outcome is bad game design

that is why players did not like the introduction of universal crush through with two handed weapons (not being able to block a strike even if you block in the right direction)

players like being rewarded for their practice and skill by being able to perform better, and by having game designs made to make players unable to survive regardless of their skill level(either by perk performance alteration or bad game mechanics like horse bump slash) is bad game design

bannerlord has moved towards a more closed system concept with the "class system"

this new system is different from warband's open selection system which allowed more freedom

this new system doesn't add anything to the veteran player's experience but rather takes away from it

now a player cannot freely choose basic combat equipment like a spear, shield, sword and 2 handed weapon; but rather they have to search the battlefield to get a complete setup

the class system as it is, is poorly designed; but i do believe it has potential and could function if designed correctly. Specifically for battle mode I believe this system could function but only under a fundamental redesign of inventory mechanics

the new class system restricts your ability to select more weapons then you would normally choose in the warband system, like I have stated before with 4 slots you should be able to equip a sword, shield, spear and 2 handed weapon to survive most situation, but with this new restrictive class system it would make sense to redesign this concept

i believe bannerlord should move to a more realistic inventory management functionality, more specifically i believe you should not be able to unequip large weapons to your back like pikes or lances (pikes currently float behind your back when you switch to another weapon)

a realistic inventory management system would improve gameplay (like not having archers all switch to pikes instantly when a cavalry unit charges their rear) and the restrictive class system would make more sense and would be less frustrating to play with if you were not always looking for more weapons to complete your gear set up

another option is to have a larger movement speed penalty for carrying large weapons stored on your back similar to the movement speed penalty for having multiple shields on you

by having this penalty to your movement speed (or inability to store large weapons on back) the two perk selection screen for classes starts to become more appealing because you spawn with the most efficient loadout possible

This is how I would recreate the class system

4 different classes with 2 different armor types (armor specific to the soldier not the mount when applicable)
: heavy infantry, light infantry, heavy archer, light archer, heavy cavalry, light cavalry, heavy horse skirmishers, light horse skirmishers (8 total)

all the perks are the same for light and heavy armor classes
for infantry I would change the perks to
1st perk selection: sword(preferably short for heavy infantry and long for light infantry because if you are heavy you need a quick weapon when your surrounded by multiple enemies), mace, or axe
2nd perk selection: javelins, spear (preferably throwing spear/pila), 2 handed weapon (the quickest one is usually best but it would be nice for an in-menu option to select between the three)

for archers I would change the perks to (all archers would have a shield no reason to not have one)
1st perk selection: same as infantry (sword, mace, or axe)
2nd perk selection: short bow, long bow (more armor penetration), and crossbow (crossbows should be universal, given a battle mode situation not having access to crossbows would be frustrating to play against if crossbows where the only realistic means of armor penetration; of course this could be changed when testing)

for cavalry I would change the perks to (lance size should be the same for all factions so that a player's skill should be the only determining factor in who wins a joust, maybe have a shorter lance for light cav)
1st perk selection: bastard axe, bastard sword, bastard mace (like morning star in warband; the bastard weapons are perfect for horseback because they have the length for fighting on horseback and could also do well on foot)
2nd perk section: no armor, half-armor, or full armor for mount (all cavalry should have the same movement speed as those in it's armor class, so every faction's heavy full armor cavalry should be as fast as every other faction's heavy full armor cavalry etc)

for horse skirmishers I would change the perks to (bastard sword would be standard for horse archer bc with the two perk selection menu you do not have the slot for changing a third item)
1st perk selection: short bow, long bow(one that can be drawn from horseback that has less armor penetration), or javelins
2nd perk selection: no armor, half-armor, full armor for mount

general combat changes I would include:
only 2 different base movement speeds, heavy and light (I know this is a very big change for the game series but I do not believe the different running speeds for every class adds anything to the game, being able to outrun you opponents is fun but it is frustrating to play against; However I am not saying everyone should run the same regardless of their equipment, for example an archer should not be able to kite an infantry forever (like I stated before, a movement penalty should be placed on the archers quiver so he would have to drop his quiver to be able to run at normal speed)) this would reduce the amount of situation where an opponent can simply run away forever. By having two universal running speeds (given no weapon load) you can theoretically catch any opponent given two chasers (2 light catching 1 light opponent) in a finite area. (this important gameplay concept is fundamental in reducing game delayers who run away indefinitely if given the opportunity with unbalanced gameplay mechanics)

this concept is also carried to horse combat, except there are 3 basic movement speeds for horses (full armor, half armor, no armor).
there should also be a differentiation between the horse's speed based on the rider, so a horse would run faster if the rider has light armor and not heavy armor

I would like to remove accuracy penalty for infantry/calvary using bows/crossbows along with infantry/archers using mounts; you shouldnt punish players for trying to adapt to the different situations that arise in a battle.
A player should have an equal chance at fighting in every situation regardless of class selection.

all weapons drop when you are killed (this is important when engaging archers because they always switch to melee and it would be beneficial to be able to loot their range weapon)

arrow damage reduction to heavy armor and removal of the horse bump slash mechanic (discussed before)

projectile damage reduction for people who get shot through their shield on their back(more then what already exists)

cavalrymen being able to be dismounted by heavy strikes to rider (similar to single-player, this isn't too important but would add more variety to combat)

arrows/bows/crossbows/javelins being destruct-able (being able to destroy these items when seen on the ground to prevent your enemies from using them)


moving back to battle mode, relative to faction balance
I believe that the single round battle mode should have faction differentials in their army composition

so for example the khuzaits should have the ability to have more cavalry in their army composition
so for example Khuzaits: (no limit) light infantry, 10% heavy infantry, 20 % light archers, 10% heavy archers, 15% light cavalry, 5% heavy cavalry, 15% light horse skirmishers ,5% heavy horse skirmishers

and for example, vlandians: (no limit) light infantry, 15% heavy infantry, 20% light archers, 15% heavy archers, 10% light cavalry, 5% heavy cavalry, 10% light horse skirmishers, 5% heavy horse skirmishers

this differentiation would lead to interesting battle organizations and fun gameplay design,

the function of these limits would be similar to the napoleonic warfare game design where players would enter the game and those who select the classes first get to play them until the hard limit would be reached (relative to the faction) and the choice would be blacked out and you no longer be able to select them

@NIN3 I know you do not the authority to make most of these changes, but I do believe these would be good changes to the game.
thank you for reading
 
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Aliaksandr

Sergeant at Arms
Man... it seems that you took this wisdom too fanatically: "a wold dropped from a song makes it all wrong"... TL;DR
 
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Horked

This socalled "1 life" battle mode is the classic, usually open field, battle and my favorite mode for many reasons, mainly because its the most balanced.

When there is for example 5 minutes left of the battle round, one flag at a strategical position will spawn and the team who raised the flag when the final 5 minutes is over, wins. This was how battle was in the mod cRPG - apart from the little detail that in the mod, the flag would just spawn in the center of the map and not on a "strategical" spot like the top of a hill or the town hall in a breached town. It worked really well. Everyone liked it.

Edit: And I just had this idea for another MP mode, Campaign! Siege and battle combined. First players fight for the castle, if the attackers win, next round will be a battle inside the castle or outside the castle in a scene where the castle have taken damage. If the attackers win that as well, final round will be another battle, but close quaters, inside the main castle interior, like a bar brawl but with weapons. Warband SP but MP
 
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Younes

Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
When there is for example 5 minutes left of the battle round, one flag at a strategical position will spawn and the team who raised the flag when the final 5 minutes is over, wins. This was how battle was in the mod cRPG. It worked really well. Everyone liked it.
That's how it worked everywhere.
 

Krisee

Sergeant
This socalled "1 life" battle mode is the classic, usually open field, battle and my favorite mode for many reasons, mainly because its the most balanced.
Maybe most balanced if you had custom item selection. Also archer spam on very open maps.


To OP: Please format you text a bit, I am not reading that.
 

Younes

Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Maybe most balanced if you had custom item selection. Also archer spam on very open maps.


To OP: Please format you text a bit, I am not reading that.
I have read it completely and agree about the part he mentions battle
 

levilop

Sergeant
Edit: And I just had this idea for another MP mode, Campaign! Siege and battle combined. First players fight for the castle, if the attackers win, next round will be a battle inside the castle or outside the castle in a scene where the castle have taken damage. If the attackers win that as well, final round will be another battle, but close quaters, inside the main castle interior, like a bar brawl but with weapons. Warband SP but MP

What you described here is similar to the campaign mode in Battlefield series. There attackers would win a sector if they could capture different areas of the map before their collective team respawns would run out. If that area is captured by the attackers, another area on the map becomes available to capture / defend them. Maps usually had around 4-5 segments like these and it really made the players to be engaged in the gamemode. Honestly such a mode would be amazing for Bannerlord.
 

Askey

Sergeant
"Battle mode is the last major update for MP"... wtf!

And no, just have Battle Mode like Warband. We don't need need anything fancy, a few rounds and one life. How the f is this not already in the game...

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
 

Septlante

Recruit
"Battle mode is the last major update for MP"... wtf!

And no, just have Battle Mode like Warband. We don't need need anything fancy, a few rounds and one life. How the f is this not already in the game...

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
I agree - feels like they could put this in tomorrow if they really wanted to.
 

Gsälzbär

Squire
I believe that battle mode should be centered around a single round instead of multiple rounds, this way when you die you can just leave the game and enter matchmaking again (battle mode was made for matchmaking) to quickly find a new game

another benefit to the single round mechanic is for balancing, without the additional resources gained from a previous round, every game would start equally
This would encourage Players to YOLOPRESSXFORWINANDLEAVE(repeat every Game because i can leave and play a new Game). No need for any tacticts or care a bit about your health or what your Team is doing. You have to think about what Class are you playing and if its worth to ride straight into the Enemy with your 200 gold Class.

Battle is not finished yet as Nin3 mentioned it quite a few Times now so we cannot say how it will turn out.

instead of the flag system (which encourages silly gameplay mechanics like camping on the flag to win instead of focusing on the actual battle) bannerlord should consider a restricting map size concept similar to fortnite and other battle royal games (however instead of the map reducing in size randomly it could reduce it's size based around the center mass of the map, meaning if two armies are facing off against each other the map would reduce towards the center of the two armies; this would encourage more battle orientated gameplay and still have the benefits of a constricting map size to expedite the battle)
Good Idea for a new Gamemode but not for Battle(Your Idea of the one Round Battle)
 

WMorton

Sergeant
WBWF&SNW
I believe that battle mode should be centered around a single round instead of multiple rounds, this way when you die you can just leave the game and enter matchmaking again (battle mode was made for matchmaking) to quickly find a new game
I know me and you have talked about this before, however I still disagree about sending people to a completely new server after a round ends. So far the battle rounds have been fairly quick, yes it sucks if your the first person who dies but for everyone else its a pretty quick turn around from when you die to when the next round begins.
 
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