Competitive changes for future tourneys
- Thread starter OurGloriousLeader
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Remove Khergit Horse Archery skill or reduce it to 1 so that the horses are instead used as ways for archers to get to positions rather than for actually shooting from horseback as they will be so inaccurate that it's not worth it. Apply other balances to the other classes and they become workable whilst maintaing a unique style of play.
Reduce their archer's power draw and ranged proficiencies to balance, maintain ironflesh at 0 + other relevant changes and this unique application will be able to exist without being OP
Reduce their archer's power draw and ranged proficiencies to balance, maintain ironflesh at 0 + other relevant changes and this unique application will be able to exist without being OP
It is a nice idea to use them as simply very positional. Horse archery at 0 might still be too good though would need to test.
These are the full changes to Khergits that I propose, explanations are included in each spoiler. Obviously Khergits have not been used competitively for such a long time that it is hard to know if these will work but in theory, at least, it appears to create a balanced faction.
These are speculative and have no basis in testing or in practice. I checked item costs and potential builds and incorporated those into these stat changes so that they take account of access to certain types of weapons and gear (Khergit Lancers, for instance, can afford a lot of gear and may even prove to be sources of shield drops to inf). I also evaluated them against every other faction in the game so that these stats are balanced against them in theory, though in practice Khergits may still prove to be too powerful on open maps.
Ironflesh 0->1
Power Strike 0->2
Power Throw 0
Power Draw 5->4 (this may be too much of a change but I think it is necessary to limit the potency of their extra mobility, even if they can't shoot from horseback - this is a 14% decrease in damage)
Shield 1->2
Athletics 3
Riding 2->1
Horse Archery 3->0
One Handed Weapons Proficiency 70->90
Polearms Proficiency 70->80
Archery Proficiency 142->130
The buffs to melee and HP are intended to make this class viable as dismounted archers on closed maps. Everyone considers open maps when talking about Khergits but on closed archers with 0 Ironflesh, 0 Power Strike and 1 shield skill are going to get crushed. By increasing these to the same level as other factions (Nord archers have 2 IF, 2 PS and 3 Shield) they gain some relevance on closed maps. Also raising 1h and polearm proficiency to the level of Nord archers feeds this purpose. Dropping archery proficiency to 130 reduces their accuracy slightly, ensuring they can't just ride off to an OP vantage point for shooting. This would give them the lowest archery proficiency in the game. Reducing riding makes archers more vulnerable when straying too far from their cav.
Power Strike 0->2
Power Throw 0
Power Draw 5->4 (this may be too much of a change but I think it is necessary to limit the potency of their extra mobility, even if they can't shoot from horseback - this is a 14% decrease in damage)
Shield 1->2
Athletics 3
Riding 2->1
Horse Archery 3->0
One Handed Weapons Proficiency 70->90
Polearms Proficiency 70->80
Archery Proficiency 142->130
The buffs to melee and HP are intended to make this class viable as dismounted archers on closed maps. Everyone considers open maps when talking about Khergits but on closed archers with 0 Ironflesh, 0 Power Strike and 1 shield skill are going to get crushed. By increasing these to the same level as other factions (Nord archers have 2 IF, 2 PS and 3 Shield) they gain some relevance on closed maps. Also raising 1h and polearm proficiency to the level of Nord archers feeds this purpose. Dropping archery proficiency to 130 reduces their accuracy slightly, ensuring they can't just ride off to an OP vantage point for shooting. This would give them the lowest archery proficiency in the game. Reducing riding makes archers more vulnerable when straying too far from their cav.
Ironflesh 3->4
Power Strike 3->5
Power Throw 3
Power Draw 0
Shield 4
Athletics 6
Riding 1
Horse Archery 0
Polearms Proficiency 110->130
These changes will make Khergits able to compete on closed maps; their existing stats are by far the lowest. Khergits will suffer from weak archers on closed maps (if the HA changes I proposed are applied) therefore they need a strength in something else to make them have a chance on closed maps. Khergit infantry equipment is unique in so far as infantry have no option for a better spear than the regular one and they cannot get a better shield than the Round shield without buying cav shields. The Tribal Armour is good though, as are the sabres, so Khergits will be able to deal real damage with the increase in Power Strike but will be extremely vulnerable to cav due to a lack of good spears or shields. The infantry will also have weaker archer support so will need to do more work. The slight raise in polearm proficiency brings it to the same level as Sarranids have.
Power Strike 3->5
Power Throw 3
Power Draw 0
Shield 4
Athletics 6
Riding 1
Horse Archery 0
Polearms Proficiency 110->130
These changes will make Khergits able to compete on closed maps; their existing stats are by far the lowest. Khergits will suffer from weak archers on closed maps (if the HA changes I proposed are applied) therefore they need a strength in something else to make them have a chance on closed maps. Khergit infantry equipment is unique in so far as infantry have no option for a better spear than the regular one and they cannot get a better shield than the Round shield without buying cav shields. The Tribal Armour is good though, as are the sabres, so Khergits will be able to deal real damage with the increase in Power Strike but will be extremely vulnerable to cav due to a lack of good spears or shields. The infantry will also have weaker archer support so will need to do more work. The slight raise in polearm proficiency brings it to the same level as Sarranids have.
Ironflesh 3->2
Power Strike 3->2
Power Throw 3
Power Draw 0
Shield 4->3
Athletics 4->3
Riding 6->7
Horse Archery 0
These changes are necessary just to balance out the Lancer class to be more comparable to other factions; as it is they have the highest shield skill and highest athletics of any faction's cav, which on closed maps could prove to make them too strong once dismounted. Lancers will have the extra job of defending archers who are at greater distances and to accomplish this properly an increase to their riding is necessary.
Power Strike 3->2
Power Throw 3
Power Draw 0
Shield 4->3
Athletics 4->3
Riding 6->7
Horse Archery 0
These changes are necessary just to balance out the Lancer class to be more comparable to other factions; as it is they have the highest shield skill and highest athletics of any faction's cav, which on closed maps could prove to make them too strong once dismounted. Lancers will have the extra job of defending archers who are at greater distances and to accomplish this properly an increase to their riding is necessary.
These are speculative and have no basis in testing or in practice. I checked item costs and potential builds and incorporated those into these stat changes so that they take account of access to certain types of weapons and gear (Khergit Lancers, for instance, can afford a lot of gear and may even prove to be sources of shield drops to inf). I also evaluated them against every other faction in the game so that these stats are balanced against them in theory, though in practice Khergits may still prove to be too powerful on open maps.
Didn't really read through the whole thread so not sure if this has been suggested: what about reducing the number of arrows for kherg horse archers? maybe like 10 arrows or something. Once their arrows are spent, they become pretty useless anyway, discouraging teams from having more than 1.
I said to Gibby on steam but just to post to anyone else - all bow factions currently have 0 horse archery and it's still pretty broken, only reason we don't use it more is cos of the cost of horse drops/crappy dismounted cavalry. I don't think stats fix it.
As for module work in general, I'm just about capable of amending stats (and game modes...talk to me about fight & destroy...) but beyond that I have neither the skill nor inclination to do anything. So that is much more theoretical. Also, it's all up to admins of future tourneys of which I know of nothing. I just wanted to get some general consensus that some, any, of these changes are worth adding and easily done.
As for module work in general, I'm just about capable of amending stats (and game modes...talk to me about fight & destroy...) but beyond that I have neither the skill nor inclination to do anything. So that is much more theoretical. Also, it's all up to admins of future tourneys of which I know of nothing. I just wanted to get some general consensus that some, any, of these changes are worth adding and easily done.
Would love to see some kind of small spawn delay (~5s) implemented, similar to the one cavalry has on IG. Would make upgrading, sorting out drops etc in the middle of a set much less painful when you have a dedicated window for it, instead of having to spend time at the end/start of a round.
Can't really say what I think unless I tried it really. Although the javelin point seems odd, maybe the Nord cavalry should only be allowed to drop 2 packs each instead, so that there would be 5-20 javelins shared between 4/5 infantry, putting a stop to all of the spam but they also still have an effect.
And one shield, shared between the team members
As a side note, if people want me to start making multiplayer maps again, I would be happy to do so. 
ZombieJR said:
This is what happens currently. 20 javs on inf plus 10 on cav = 30 javs on round 1.
Javs are actually affordable as nord inf, you just have to choose between an axe or javs.
Edit: Throwing axes i mean
Edit: Throwing axes i mean
OurGloriousLeader said:
Whats wrong with 30 javs? I mean, the only thing that Nord cav have, is javs. Why reducing the amount of it? If nords are standing against Veagirs in an open map, 30 javs are surely not enough. The nord archer is quite useless and the cav are weak. Less javs wont improve anything in my opinion, altho as mentioned by a few, i would really liek to try ideas
