Community Reviews of Bannerlord

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Looks like you reached real far for that one. If you have a problem with me just say it. You seem to think I'm a brainwashed guy living in a ****ty tyrannical country ever since I mentioned I'm Asian. I merely said what I think Spinozart was trying to say.
I see patterns, I post about it. If they are wrong, I expect counter-arguments - I'm willing to change my mind over something that is speculation anyway.
What really interests me here is how personal bias decides different attitudes in the same situation. Particularly the bias of your pal there, he's an outlier and I bet there's an interesting. but unfortunate reason for that.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
No.

It doesn't matter if TW decided to change things somewhere down the line. They promised a certain sort of product and have ultimately failed to deliver it, whether or not a group of the players expected Warband 2.0, that was on them. So when they failed to deliver, people can and will get frustrated—which is their right as a customer.

This argument is terrible.
What promise are you referring to? What does it even mean "a certain sort of product"?
So your statement is that TW failed to deliver their product? I don't agree.
I'm already enjoying the game, and it is not even finished...
If you argued this in a court about a misled/faulty product, it would go just about as terribly as you probably know it would. The creation of a frustration of paying for a product and getting garbage in return is solely on TW. This is like saying if a man buys a TV, takes it home and sees that its display is crappy, the frustration he feels is on him (and he should not express it because "it's his emotion") and not express it toward the TV manufacturer. This is unadulterated nonsense.
Again the game is not "garbage" and it is still under development...
Your example with the TV is a little bit to simple.
Let me adapt it:
"A man buys a 4KTV because he saw a commercial saying that everything looks amazing in 4K.
But once he actually experiences it by himself, he realizes that it is not so exceptional. And he starts regretting his "old" flat screen.
He starts to get frustrated..."
A lot of people here are frustrated because they were expecting something different, they projected themself.
You should not pretend to know the situations of people here to better your argument. Firstly, because horrific things happening elsewhere does not negate the quality of this product and the customers' right. Secondly, I could be missing both my legs and still be incredibly frustrated that 1 year after EA a game I paid a ton of money for is basically the exact same thing it was Day 1. Why? Because I have every right to that frustration as a customer, just as I have ever right to voice it.
You misunderstood my point, probably because of my poor wording.
"Deal with your frustrations" may sound harsh for some people, especially if they face a lot of difficult events IRL, and I simply tried to nuance it.
 

Grank

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVC
Except someone is fully responsible for it. Taleworlds. The fault lies entirely on them.
Yeah I wouldn't agree on that. No company can be fully responsible over the emotions of all of its consumers. You need to draw the line somewhere, and the generally accepted line is the law. Imagine a good company selling a good product, and one mentally-challenged person freaks out about it. It would be nonsense to put all the blame on the company.

No, promising content and then not delivering it is false advertisement, because "fun" is completely subjective, but missing promised content is not. For example, even if they said "it will have merry-go-rounds that will shoot you into space where space dragons dance around you" and not have that promised content, that is false advertisement. Why? Because they told people it would be this and that, and have this and that, which influences customers to buy based off that advertisement. When it fails to deliver one or half of all it promised, the argument of false advertisement or duplicitous advertisement is 100% reasonable to throw out against TW.
Yes, I said pretty much the same thing. If they promised a feature and it's not there, that's a clear violation. However, when it comes to the more subjective words of quality, it's pretty vague on whether or not they fulfill it. There may also be disclaimers ("things may be subject to change" "toy doesn't actually fly" and stuff) on advertisement, which makes this even more difficult to define.

This might be helpful. If this isn't what you meant, I'm certain there is a thread out there with a compiled list available.

Yes I meant something like that. Blog entries on their official website must count. Though again, disclaimers might let them get away with it. I hope you notice that I'm not just defending TW here. My whole stance here is that if Taleworlds decides to screw us up with corporate bullcrap, that will be upsetting, but I'm not gonna throw a fuss about it. I find anger harmful to myself, so I'd rather not have it. Personally I'm quite satisfied with the game, and optimistic about the mods that will come.

I see patterns, I post about it. If they are wrong, I expect counter-arguments - I'm willing to change my mind over something that is speculation anyway.
Yeah I'd like to ask you to change that speculation, if you don't mind. I don't live in that country or that country up north. I'm just a dude who thinks very technically (been a programmer for years), for better or worse.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
but for a game like Bannerlord in EA you cannot get the full scope of the game out of 30-50 hours,
You can definitely get the full scope of Bannerlord (or Warband) in 30-50 hours, unless you're deliberately limiting yourself. Some guy managed to get to nearly the endgame (faction ruler/senior vassal = run around recruiting clans) within ten hours.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
I see patterns, I post about it. If they are wrong, I expect counter-arguments - I'm willing to change my mind over something that is speculation anyway.
What really interests me here is how personal bias decides different attitudes in the same situation. Particularly the bias of your pal there, he's an outlier and I bet there's an interesting. but unfortunate reason for that.
So enjoying a game and expressing it is a bias?
And what about critizising a and trolling the forum of a game you don't even own? What kind of interesting but unfortunate reason could justify this kind of behavior?
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
What promise are you referring to? What does it even mean "a certain sort of product"?
So your statement is that TW failed to deliver their product? I don't agree.
I'm already enjoying the game, and it is not even finished...

They promised a product with certain features and quality. They have so far not delivered on that product. That is the promise of product I am referring to.

If the developers said you could, for example, morph into a giant and eat the populace of Calradia and didn't deliver on that promise, that is exactly what it is. You don't have to agree with it for it to be accurate, and you enjoying the game doesn't mean I am wrong. It only means you don't care that it is missing large amounts of features and depth promised. All because you enjoy it as is.

Again the game is not "garbage" and it is still under development...

If you like it [the game] as is, how can you unbiasedly conclude what quality state the game is in right now? Most people would conclude a game that barely performs and lacks depth promised and was there in its older entry as "garbage". That isn't to say it cannot change or cannot be salvaged, only that it needs to. What white knighting the game in its current state achieves is absolutely nothing. Brutal honesty helps us all. There are a lot of things Bannerlord needs to do, especially to justify a $50 price tag on an EA title that as barely any depth to it.

Your example with the TV is a little bit to simple.
Let me adapt it:
"A man buys a 4KTV because he saw a commercial saying that everything looks amazing in 4K.
But once he actually experiences it by himself, he realizes that it is not so exceptional. And he starts regretting his "old" flat screen.
He starts to get frustrated..."
A lot of people here are frustrated because they were expecting something different, they projected themself.

No. lol There is a difference in not liking 4k and not getting the 4k experience that was advertised. You can't be serious with this...

You misunderstood my point, probably because of my poor wording.
"Deal with your frustrations" may sound harsh for some people, especially if they face a lot of difficult events IRL, and I simply tried to nuance it.

It doesn't look like I misunderstood anything though? You are still pushing the same argument. That the frustrations mean nothing and customers should just "deal with it", since there are more "difficult" events IRL.

You can definitely get the full scope of Bannerlord (or Warband) in 30-50 hours, unless you're deliberately limiting yourself. Some guy managed to get to nearly the endgame (faction ruler/senior vassal = run around recruiting clans) within ten hours.

No you cannot not get the full scope of it. Rushing to end game does not mean one gets the full scope of the game. You are conflating the two. You can beat one of the Fallout games* in under 5 minutes. Doesn't mean you get the full scope of it, does it?

*my bad, it's that new game called The Outer Worlds that you can do this in. Though I think you can beat New Vegas in under an hour too, I might be recalling that incorrectly.

Yeah I wouldn't agree on that. No company can be fully responsible over the emotions of all of its consumers. You need to draw the line somewhere, and the generally accepted line is the law.

This opinion absolves all companies of any responsibility. If a person gets scammed by a misleading product, it isn't the company's responsibility for the disappointment and frustration of the customer? Clearly this argument draws the line wherever the company feet stands absolutely, because customers here in this situation have not gotten the product they were promised at purchase and somehow it is unreasonable that the line be drawn there for them to voice that frustration? Somehow it is unreasonable for these people to have that emotion in the first place?

I say malarkey to that argument, is what I say.

Imagine a good company selling a good product, and one mentally-challenged person freaks out about it. It would be nonsense to put all the blame on the company

Wait...what? How can you even reasonably say this? Someone (apparently mentally challenged?) complaining about a good product functioning as it should, delivering on what it promised, is in no way similar to a large amount of people buying a game that promised this and that, and getting a bad product that doesn't have this and that.

This comparison is not good, at all.

Yes, I said pretty much the same thing. If they promised a feature and it's not there, that's a clear violation. However, when it comes to the more subjective words of quality, it's pretty vague on whether or not they fulfill it. There may also be disclaimers ("things may be subject to change" "toy doesn't actually fly" and stuff) on advertisement, which makes this even more difficult to define.

You are avoiding the point.

If they promised "fun features" and that was it, you have a valid point, because something so vaguely subjective cannot be held against them because not everyone agrees (and they would have been smart enough to scam people better), as what is fun to me is not fun to you.

What you guys are either not understanding or avoiding is that Tale Worlds did not simply promise "something fun" or dare promise an "amazing game". They gave road maps full of content and depth for the game, a lot of which they issued under the EA release, and so far we have gotten like what...3 of them? Other items were abandoned post EA or abandoned without even informing the customer.

That—the missing content—is not subjective, it is reality. People who say so are being dishonest by chalking it down to these things which no one argued to avoid the core of the argument which directly proves them wrong.

I suggest you guys read up on what legal false advertisement is and then perhaps you might understand the scope of the argument being laid. Within the U.S alone, civil lawsuits can be filed for false advertising that “misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin” of goods/services/products/etc. And Bannerlord largely does not represent the nature, characteristics and quality originally outlined. This is again, fact. Whether or not people like it as is.

It can be argued the environment in which early access products are sold can be questionable under this scrutiny, since it has not technically released yet and thus have time to provide the promised missing content, but only that and even so you would need to define what sort of time frame is suitable for be scammed or not.

Yes I meant something like that. Blog entries on their official website must count. Though again, disclaimers might let them get away with it. I hope you notice that I'm not just defending TW here. My whole stance here is that if Taleworlds decides to screw us up with corporate bullcrap, that will be upsetting, but I'm not gonna throw a fuss about it. I find anger harmful to myself, so I'd rather not have it. Personally I'm quite satisfied with the game, and optimistic about the mods that will come.

I could find more if you want. Also, I know you aren't defending TW. I understood it as you explaining the argument provided by another user...was I wrong?

And okay, you (guys) not having the will power to throw a fuss about your mislead product doesn't mean you are right with your argument that TW has no responsibility and that customers frustrations are their own problems. I am also optimistic about the game's future, but having that feeling doesn't mean the game isn't in a terrible state and largely misrepresented (at least for now) what it would be.
 
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Apocal

Master Knight
No you cannot not get the full scope of it. Rushing to end game does not mean one gets the full scope of the game. You are conflating the two. You can beat one of the Fallout games* in under 5 minutes. Doesn't mean you get the full scope of it, does it?
You can start off in early game, solo/small party hunting bandits, running easy quests, building early relations and economy, getting geared, etc. From there you get a big party and fight big battles/sieges (I mean, you can fight in big battles and sieges in the early game but most people don't) then move onto being a vassal or declaring your own kingdom to engage in fief management and the army management system. After that, endgame is literally just ignoring all the **** you did earlier in favor of recruiting more lords to your faction*.

There isn't much else to do. Like I said, if you can't get to late-game by time 30-50 hours rolls around, it is because you're doing something like wandering around towns and villages randomly or something. The game doesn't time-gate a player or enforce grinding that harshly. I don't think it is a great loop but I won't accuse TW of making it take a lot of time to experience the full depth and breadth of the game.

*And maybe stopping occasionally to make more money.

edit: Let me try a different tack. Which actual gameplay feature do you think takes more than fifty hours to experience @Ser Jon ?
 
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Ser Jon

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You can start off in early game, solo/small party hunting bandits, running easy quests, building early relations and economy, getting geared, etc. From there you get a big party and fight big battles/sieges (I mean, you can fight in big battles and sieges in the early game but most people don't) then move onto being a vassal or declaring your own kingdom to engage in fief management and the army management system. After that, endgame is literally just ignoring all the **** you did earlier in favor of recruiting more lords to your faction*.

There isn't much else to do. Like I said, if you can't get to late-game by time 30-50 hours rolls around, it is because you're doing something like wandering around towns and villages randomly or something. The game doesn't time-gate a player or enforce grinding that harshly. I don't think it is a great loop but I won't accuse TW of making it take a lot of time to experience the full depth and breadth of the game.

*And maybe stopping occasionally to make more money.

edit: Let me try a different tack. Which actual gameplay feature do you think takes more than fifty hours to experience @Ser Jon ?

None of what you said negates my argument though? The ability to shoot through a game also still doesn't defeat my argument. You cannot rule absolutely that a game—especially an early access title—can only be enjoyed in under 30-50 hours when the game isn't even complete yet and goes through various bug fixing and performance patches. This is asinine. lol

edit: Let me try a different tack. Which actual gameplay feature do you think takes more than fifty hours to experience @Ser Jon ?

Wait, have you not been paying attention to the argument?

There are tons of reasons hours are tacked on for people, of which I have repeated numerous times and seems to consistently fall on deaf ears. Lack of features, existing features, bugs, performance issues, mods that save the game etc etc. Some of such could include depth of NPCs—such as companions, lords, ladies/lords—, quest lines (anywhere from minor or major), the strategic mechanism behind the combat system, stories presented within the world, cultures, title management, etc etc. For a game like Bannerlord in EA, which you additionally tack on time as you try out new patches which either alter content or adds in new content. The scope is currently always changing. Other reasons include bug testing and performance testing on top of those new content patch testing. So yes, you cannot begin to get the scope of what a game like Bannerlord presents in under fifty hours when you are constantly fighting through a new gaggle of bugs and performance issues and awaiting new content patches or patches which alter the content.

At the end of the day, how much time someone has put into Bannerlord means absolutely nothing and it is astounding that people can argue this, especially in an EA setting.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
None of what you said negates my argument though? The ability to shoot through a game also still doesn't defeat my argument. You cannot rule absolutely that a game—especially an early access title—can only be enjoyed in under 30-50 hours when the game isn't even complete yet and goes through various bug fixing and performance patches. This is asinine. lol
I didn't say it could only be enjoyed in under 30-50 hours. I said you can do pretty much everything this game, Bannerlord, has to offer in only 30-50 hours, playing at a normal pace. And like, Bannerlord's issues were noted very early on, within a week at latest.
For a game like Bannerlord in EA, which you additionally tack on time as you try out new patches which either alter content or adds in new content. The scope is currently always changing.
What added content takes that much time? They've added zero (0) new gameplay loops. It took me less than ten minutes of play to figure out that pillaging was terrible and say as much. People did the same with the prison break feature, without needing much time. Rebellions, maybe, ish, somewhat. But overall, there is no reason at all to spend a large amount of time playing Bannerlord, unless you're having fun with it. Checking out the new features doesn't take that much time because none of them are big changes in the gameplay.
 
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Ser Jon

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I didn't say it could only be enjoyed in under 30-50 hours. I said you can do pretty much everything this game, Bannerlord, has to offer in only 30-50 hours, playing at a normal pace.

What added content takes that much time? They've added zero (0) new gameplay loops. It took me less than ten minutes of play to figure out that pillaging was terrible and say as much. People did the same with the prison break feature, without needing much time. Rebellions, maybe, ish, somewhat. But overall, there is no reason at all to spend a large amount of time playing Bannerlord, unless you're having fun with it. Checking out the new features doesn't take that much time because none of them are big changes in the gameplay.

Ah, okay, I see then where the confusion here lies between us. My argument was that time in a game doesn't indicate that person can only like it, as there is much to explore during an evolving EA title that putting more time into it is only natural—even should you largely dislike the game.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
They promised a product with certain features and quality. They have so far not delivered on that product. That is the promise of product I am referring to.

If the developers said you could, for example, morph into a giant and eat the populace of Calradia and didn't deliver on that promise, that is exactly what it is. You don't have to agree with it for it to be accurate, and you enjoying the game doesn't mean I am wrong. It only means you don't care that it is missing large amounts of features and depth promised. All because you enjoy it as is.
It looks like after the impressive quantity of words you wrote down today, you forgot that you are the one who started to say that I'm wrong.
I never said you are wrong, you have your opinion and all I wish is that you manage to deal your frustrations about this game.
And stop making any unilateral conclusion, I do care about the development of Bannerlord...
If you like it [the game] as is, how can you unbiasedly conclude what quality state the game is in right now? Most people would conclude a game that barely performs and lacks depth promised and was there in its older entry as "garbage". That isn't to say it cannot change or cannot be salvaged, only that it needs to. What white knighting the game in its current state achieves is absolutely nothing. Brutal honesty helps us all. There are a lot of things Bannerlord needs to do, especially to justify a $50 price tag on an EA title that as barely any depth to it.
here comes the White Knighting argument... How original it is...
And how should I categorize you? Black Guard?
Don't you think that the way you see the current state of the game is biaised by the polarization occuring in this forum?
People mainly post negative things, and of course it will be followed by other negative posts...
Once somebody starts to say something different, then he is categorized as "White Knight", or is suspected to be a TW intern, or whatever...
No. lol There is a difference in not liking 4k and not getting the 4k experience that was advertised. You can't be serious with this...
or maybe you can't enjoy the 4K experience because you were expecting something else...
It doesn't look like I misunderstood anything though? You are still pushing the same argument. That the frustrations mean nothing and customers should just "deal with it", since there are more "difficult" events IRL.
No I never said that, frustration means something and this is why it is important to manage it.
I suggest you guys read up on what legal false advertisement is and then perhaps you might understand the scope of the argument being laid. Within the U.S alone, civil lawsuits can be filed for false advertising that “misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin” of goods/services/products/etc. And Bannerlord largely does not represent the nature, characteristics and quality originally outlined. This is again, fact. Whether or not people like it as is.
Oh come on, let's not start the juridical thing...
And okay, you (guys) not having the will power to throw a fuss about your mislead product doesn't mean you are right with your argument that TW has no responsibility and that customers frustrations are their own problems.
No the real point was that frustration is an emotion that you have to manage by yourself.
And TW is certainly not responsible of your emotions.
I am also optimistic about the game's future, but having that feeling doesn't mean the game isn't in a terrible state and largely misrepresented (at least for now) what it would be.
I really hope you will be able to enjoy the game at some point of its development, if not on his final realease...
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It looks like after the impressive quantity of words you wrote down today, you forgot that you are the one who started to say that I'm wrong.
I never said you are wrong, you have your opinion and all I wish is that you manage to deal your frustrations about this game.

@ bolded red: I'm sorry? Am I not supposed to use words? What is this, I'm so confused. 😅

And so what if I did say you were wrong first? Your posted something and I responded in so many ways to tell you that your logic is flawed. We are in a discussion, which we have been debating over for a bit now. Someone is going to be wrong. I never said I couldn't be wrong either. It is your job to prove that I am wrong, but thus far you have failed at that. You do not need to get upset over it though.

And stop making any unilateral conclusion, I do care about the development of Bannerlord...

First of all, that is not what I did, but I suppose I should have been a bit more clear in that statement. It is very clear you care about the development of the game. All I said was that you liked it as is even with the missing content (which is fact, is it not? You have said so a few times now), so based on your own statements, you could not unbiasedly conclude the quality of the game because you like it even when it isn't even the product it promised to be. Secondly, even though that is not what I was doing, I find it strange that you say this and have been making unilateral conclusions on the behalf of other players (customers) yourself.

here comes the White Knighting argument... How original it is...
And how should I categorize you? Black Guard?
Don't you think that the way you see the current state of the game is biaised by the polarization occuring in this forum?
People mainly post negative things, and of course it will be followed by other negative posts...
Once somebody starts to say something different, then he is categorized as "White Knight", or is suspected to be a TW intern, or whatever...

If it suits you better to term my stance as black guard, go ahead. If the term I used upsets you, I'm sorry, but it is of my knowledge the best way to describe your stance on the matter without being purple prosey about it. You are absolving TW of any responsibility and placing it on the customer, with absolutes. It is defending something to the point of blindness, which is often called "white knighting" something.

No, I don't think that I am being biased. I'm operating from an area that I can see both the good and bad of the game. I don't let what I like blind me and I don't let what I dislike blind me. I can acknowledge there are are massive things to improve, even if I might like a lot of what is currently implemented (albeit poorly in most cases). It is the opinion that nothing is wrong enough to object to—that customers are somehow in the wrong for voicing frustration and not the party that causes it—that shows an incredible amount of bias.

It doesn't matter if people are mainly posting negative things. If there wasn't something to complain about, people wouldn't do it. You need to stop thinking it is the players' fault this is happening and not the developers' fault for not fixing it/causing it.

And no, not really. The term is something I use reservedly. I suspect I will not convince you of that though.

or maybe you can't enjoy the 4K experience because you were expecting something else...

No. Your comparison was bad, end of. If someone buys a 4k expecting 4k and doesn't get 4k, that's not the same as buying 4k and just not liking the experience of 4k. In this case, people bought a game that said it would have something it doesn't. They didn't buy a game that has what it promised and just didn't like the experience given. You are being dishonest with this comparison and you know it.

No I never said that, frustration means something and this is why it is important to manage it.

You made it a point to state it shouldn't be shared because it is negative and is the responsibility of the customer to control when I asked earlier, and even did so to others. That is stating that they should not voice it, that they should get over it. If not, clarify your position more then. Manage it how? Just be less mean with their words when presenting their frustration? Post less negative stuff? Don't do it at all?

Oh come on, let's not start the juridical thing...

I'm sorry, but...what?

The definition of false advertisement, especially the way in which countries recognize it legally, is very important in this discussion. Even if it upsets you, it is a legitimate argument here.

No the real point was that frustration is an emotion that you have to manage by yourself.
And TW is certainly not responsible of your emotions.

Again. You are stating that they do not have a right to voice it because you absolve TW of the blame. Manage it how, I ask again? Stop being vague. What do you think customers shouldn't be allowed to do or shouldn't do or whatever else? Not speak? Regulate them to content you deem permissible? Explain.

I really hope you will be able to enjoy the game at some point of its development, if not on his final realease...

I hope so too and I still have faith it can pull through to expectations, but it should be noted here again that whether or not you enjoy it right now doesn't mean there isn't something seriously flawed with the game right now that justifies the negative reaction of customers.
 
So enjoying a game and expressing it is a bias?
And what about critizising a and trolling the forum of a game you don't even own? What kind of interesting but unfortunate reason could justify this kind of behavior?
I care about the franchise and where it is going. I'm also professionally interested in failures in project management, although Taleworlds is tight-lipped about it and we only know bits and pieces. Learning from their mistakes is better than repeating them on your own.
I'll buy and play the game when it gets good though, which would need a large "community patch"-type mod after they release.
I'm also objective (unlike those that felt cheated by buying into EA or those that can't tolerate criticism), and read both positive and negative feedback to get a balanced view of the game's state. Which is not good at all by my standards.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
@ bolded red: I'm sorry? Am I not supposed to use words? What is this, I'm so confused. 😅

And so what if I did say you were wrong first? Your posted something and I responded in so many ways to tell you that your logic is flawed. We are in a discussion, which we have been debating over for a bit now. Someone is going to be wrong. I never said I couldn't be wrong either. It is your job to prove that I am wrong, but thus far you have failed at that. You do not need to get upset over it though.
Why should I try to prove you are wrong? I don't get it :unsure:
Do you think that I'm actually in some kind of verbal joute with you?
I declare you the winner then.
And I'm not upset, maybe my wording are causing an unexpected tone...
First of all, that is not what I did, but I suppose I should have been a bit more clear in that statement. It is very clear you care about the development of the game.
Thank you.
All I said was that you liked it as is even with the missing content (which is fact, is it not? You have said so a few times now), so based on your own statements, you could not unbiasedly conclude the quality of the game because you like it even when it isn't even the product it promised to be. Secondly, even though that is not what I was doing, I find it strange that you say this and have been making unilateral conclusions on the behalf of other players (customers) yourself.
I'm not sure if I want to ask it... What unilateral conclusions did I do?
If it suits you better to term my stance as black guard, go ahead. If the term I used upsets you, I'm sorry, but it is of my knowledge the best way to describe your stance on the matter without being purple prosey about it. You are absolving TW of any responsibility and placing it on the customer, with absolutes. It is defending something to the point of blindness, which is often called "white knighting" something.
No I'm not absolving TW... I was not blind when I decided to buy a game in ealry access, knowing that it should obviously miss features...
Should I mention, maybe, that I have bought the game in January of this year, and didn't experience the painfull start of the game?
I have been waiting for this game since the really beginning of its announcement.
But I didn't really follow its development because a lot of thing was meant to change over time...
No, I don't think that I am being biased. I'm operating from an area that I can see both the good and bad of the game. I don't let what I like blind me and I don't let what I dislike blind me. I can acknowledge there are are massive things to improve, even if I might like a lot of what is currently implemented (albeit poorly in most cases). It is the opinion that nothing is wrong enough to object to—that customers are somehow in the wrong for voicing frustration and not the party that causes it—that shows an incredible amount of bias.
I like how the game is being developped and see a potential, you don't. Let's keep it that way then.
It doesn't matter if people are mainly posting negative things. If there wasn't something to complain about, people wouldn't do it. You need to stop thinking it is the players' fault this is happening and not the developers' fault for not fixing it/causing it.
Okay I will try one last time, and then I leave it to you.
I'm not thinking that it is whoever fault for whatever is happening with this game...
I just don't accept to see people being harsh, aggressive and even insulting devs just because they can't deal with their own frustrations.
No. Your comparison was bad, end of. If someone buys a 4k expecting 4k and doesn't get 4k, that's not the same as buying 4k and just not liking the experience of 4k. In this case, people bought a game that said it would have something it doesn't. They didn't buy a game that has what it promised and just didn't like the experience given. You are being dishonest with this comparison and you know it.
We both agree that the TV example was not good then :xf-wink:
I'm sorry, but...what?

The definition of false advertisement, especially the way in which countries recognize it legally, is very important in this discussion. Even if it upsets you, it is a legitimate argument here.
A juridical approach is not that simple...It is about interpretation, proof, process etc... And this is just not the place neither the time...
And no, I'm not upset...
You made it a point to state it shouldn't be shared because it is negative and is the responsibility of the customer to control when I asked earlier, and even did so to others. That is stating that they should not voice it, that they should get over it. If not, clarify your position more then. Manage it how? Just be less mean with their words when presenting their frustration? Post less negative stuff? Don't do it at all?

Again. You are stating that they do not have a right to voice it because you absolve TW of the blame. Manage it how, I ask again? Stop being vague. What do you think customers shouldn't be allowed to do or shouldn't do or whatever else? Not speak? Regulate them to content you deem permissible? Explain.
Yeah being polite, less mean with their words and this kind of stuff certainly help for constructive dialogue.
And, if you believe "with absolutes" that one idea-proposal-feature is a must have, then you should also accept that not everyone is thinking that way...
Acceptance is a good way to deliverance...
I hope so too and I still have faith it can pull through to expectations, but it should be noted here again that whether or not you enjoy it right now doesn't mean there isn't something seriously flawed with the game right now that justifies the negative reaction of customers.
I wanted to end it here... but no, the game is not seriously flawed...

On the other hand, yeah, Bannelord still misses some announced features (battle terrain map, etc...), need polishing and the development is slow.
But I'm pretty sure TW will manage it, no matter what people say.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
I care about the franchise and where it is going. I'm also professionally interested in failures in project management, although Taleworlds is tight-lipped about it and we only know bits and pieces. Learning from their mistakes is better than repeating them on your own.
I'll buy and play the game when it gets good though, which would need a large "community patch"-type mod after they release.
I'm also objective (unlike those that felt cheated by buying into EA or those that can't tolerate criticism), and read both positive and negative feedback to get a balanced view of the game's state. Which is not good at all by my standards.
It is a fair and really clear statement.
Thank you for taking time to write it down, even if you were not obliged.
I can understand that the game does not meet your standards.
And I hope you will simply understand that I can already enjoy it.
My sole purpose when i joined this forum was to simply and naïvely share some "gaming talk".
Eventually supporting some mod development...
But it inevitabely ended in some kind of never ending justification of how I dare to say positive things about Bannerlord...
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Why should I try to prove you are wrong? I don't get it :unsure:
Do you think that I'm actually in some kind of verbal joute with you?
I declare you the winner then.
And I'm not upset, maybe my wording are causing an unexpected tone...

We are in a discussion/debate, that is why? If your intent is not to debate that point with anyone, why do you persist in responding to people offering contention to their opinions? Do you have no intention of accepting the possibility of being wrong or do you not intend to convince others you are right? Either way, it makes no sense to continue responding to people unless you just want to insist they are wrong.

I'm not sure if I want to ask it... What unilateral conclusions did I do?

The quality of the game and what they cannot or should not expression (or rather, what is acceptable for them to do) or even speaking on their behalf on what TW is responsible, for one thing.

No I'm not absolving TW... I was not blind when I decided to buy a game in ealry access, knowing that it should obviously miss features...
Should I mention, maybe, that I have bought the game in January of this year, and didn't experience the painfull start of the game?
I have been waiting for this game since the really beginning of its announcement.
But I didn't really follow its development because a lot of thing was meant to change over time...

You are absolving TW by choosing to tell the customer that their frustration is their fault, when it isn't. You just don't realize it. And your opinion would probably be different if you started Day 1, but who knows?

And we all know EA means work in progress. That's not the point. I think maybe there is a communication issue between us.

I like how the game is being developped and see a potential, you don't. Let's keep it that way then.

Except I do see potential. You aren't reading my posts well enough. Just because I am pointing how the problem with your logic and the problem with the game doesn't mean I don't see potential or don't want to see it developed. It's quite the opposite.

Okay I will try one last time, and then I leave it to you.
I'm not thinking that it is whoever fault for whatever is happening with this game...
I just don't accept to see people being harsh, aggressive and even insulting devs just because they can't deal with their own frustrations.

Okay. That's all I asked earlier by what you meant by "up to the person to feel that way". I asked a few times before, even asked if it was about how they voiced themselves not necessarily that they were, but I guess it just got scrolled over. Thank you for answering.

We both agree that the TV example was not good then :xf-wink:

What, no, your example was bad. Are you trolling me? xD

If a man buys a 4k monitor and doesn't end up liking the experience of 4k it is not the same thing as a man buying 4k and not getting 4k at all. Two completely different things, so thus your comparison is bad.

I could try and throw a simpler example using apples and oranges, but at this point I don't think it will be helpful. I think there is a huge language gab between us and my wretched English only tongue will not reach you. I could try google translate, but I suspect that will have the same issues in the end.

A juridical approach is not that simple...It is about interpretation, proof, process etc... And this is just not the place neither the time...
And no, I'm not upset...

Yes it is. If you refuse to accept the universal definition of a false advertisement and you refuse to accept a legal definition of it, you are basically putting hands over your ears and la-la-ing. By all definitions, it is a legitimate argument.

Yeah being polite, less mean with their words and this kind of stuff certainly help for constructive dialogue.
And, if you believe "with absolutes" that one idea-proposal-feature is a must have, then you should also accept that not everyone is thinking that way...
Acceptance is a good way to deliverance...

Okay. Well then, glad the miscommunication is over. I agree. How one communicates their disappointment and frustration is crucial. Though I do want to point out I do not particularly hold it against those who don't, because it probably means something far different to them to justify losing their temper.

I wanted to end it here... but no, the game is not seriously flawed...

Yes it is. A lack of depth and content, content promised and not delivered, stuck in a mess of bugs, non-working features and performance problems means the game is flawed.

On the other hand, yeah, Bannelord still misses some announced features (battle terrain map, etc...), need polishing and the development is slow.
But I'm pretty sure TW will manage it, no matter what people say.

I agree it will probably happen sooner rather than never, but TW managing it later isn't really the discussion right now for a lot of people though, it is about now and how its lack of content and depth is frustrating to them.

I guess since there is not point in this/not a debate, we just conclude with the fact that you got your opinions on the game + customers and I have my own?
 
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jak1up

Sergeant
WBWF&S
My sole purpose when i joined this forum was to simply and naïvely share some "gaming talk".
Eventually supporting some mod development...
But it inevitabely ended in some kind of never ending justification of how I dare to say positive things about Bannerlord...
I feel you....
 
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