***Community Feedback ROADMAP - What Taleworlds still needs to fix!***

[five bucks]

Your post it does not reflect what the "community" is requesting.

I think that while it's lacking on the MP side, it very well reflects the majority opinion of the SP community. All the things on the list were gathered from various feedback threads which repeatedly popped up or had high support in an individual thread. I even gathered feedback from other sites than this forum.
The poll being 90% in favor indicates that it represents fairly well the overall community's basic wants. You'd need a bigger poll to be sure, of course, but I have to ask: do you genuinely think it doesn't represent the majority?

A first and concrete example is that your post is in only in English. What about the other people, speaking other languages and playing the game?

English is used by 60% of sites on the Internet. Most people who browse multi-national sites like this can speak it as a secondary language.

Basically you are saying that:
Talewolrds employees personnal ideas = "pet projects", low priority.
Why?
Because you paid for the game

Look up the concept of opportunity costs. If Taleworlds has finite time and effort they can put into the project (as well as increasing difficulty of implementing features as the code gets more complex), then that means they may not be able to work on everything and thus cannot implement everything before dropping the project.

Anyone without their tongue wrapped around a boot can agree, a company selling a product should try their best to deliver on what they said they were going to give the customer. If TW works on their own ideas and neglects their promises until they run out of time/effort, then they cannot deliver on what they said Bannerlord would be. Hence why those things take priority.

Alright, that makes sense, thank you for the reply.

Thanks for being reasonable!

 

[Kipsta]

My roadmap wishlist:

1. Finish whatever they are working on right now
2. Stop adding new "features" aka bugs
3. Fix existing bugs
4. Do whatever it takes to make as much of the game moddable as possible
5. Improve mod tools as much as possible
6. They can do whatever they want now, maybe work on some DLC or something, work on Bannerlord Reforged, I don't care at this point

 

[Spinozart1]

I think that while it's lacking on the MP side, it very well reflects the majority opinion of the SP community. All the things on the list were gathered from various feedback threads which repeatedly popped up or had high support in an individual thread. I even gathered feedback from other sites than this forum.
The poll being 90% in favor indicates that it represents fairly well the overall community's basic wants. You'd need a bigger poll to be sure, of course, but I have to ask: do you genuinely think it doesn't represent the majority?

English is used by 60% of sites on the Internet. Most people who browse multi-national sites like this can speak it as a secondary language.

Look up the concept of opportunity costs. If Taleworlds has finite time and effort they can put into the project (as well as increasing difficulty of implementing features as the code gets more complex), then that means they may not be able to work on everything and thus cannot implement everything before dropping the project.

Anyone without their tongue wrapped around a boot can agree, a company selling a product should try their best to deliver on what they said they were going to give the customer. If TW works on their own ideas and neglects their promises until they run out of time/effort, then they cannot deliver on what they said Bannerlord would be. Hence why those things take priority.

Thanks for being reasonable!

Again your post is good quality feedback, no doubt about that.
And based on Duh reply, we all know that it is looked at. I just have to say good job.

You can read back my statements, my main concerns are the Category 4 and the fact that this roadmap is self-claimed as being representative of players community.

90% of 143 peeps on one single English forum does not represent a majority.
I only see a kind/risk of social polarization here.

Look up the concept of opportunity costs. If Taleworlds has finite time and effort they can put into the project (as well as increasing difficulty of implementing features as the code gets more complex), then that means they may not be able to work on everything and thus cannot implement everything before dropping the project.

Anyone without their tongue wrapped around a boot can agree, a company selling a product should try their best to deliver on what they said they were going to give the customer. If TW works on their own ideas and neglects their promises until they run out of time/effort, then they cannot deliver on what they said Bannerlord would be. Hence why those things take priority.

I get your point, similar to the intro of your post.
But I find it strange and a little bit arrogant to think that TW is not capable of managing its own project, especially this one.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

Again your post is good quality feedback, no doubt about that.
And based on Duh reply, we all know that it is looked at. I just have to say good job.

You can read back my statements, my main concerns are the Category 4 and the fact that this roadmap is self-claimed as being representative of players community.

90% of 143 peeps on one single English forum does not represent a majority.
I only see a kind/risk of social polarization here.


I get your point, similar to the intro of your post.
But I find it strange and a little bit arrogant to think that TW is not capable of managing its own project, especially this one.

They are indeed managing the BL project, but very inefficiently and disorganized, because patch output is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow and bugs that were "fixed" were not "fixed".

 

[ShakenSpeare]

I can't be the only one who was unimpressed with Duh's response. The content of the response, of course, wasn't surprising, and Duh seems to try his best to be honest and he seems to be a good chap, but when you look at the actual response to the roadmap when we put aside the verbal judo, he basically said that on behalf of TW, the response is no. The roadmap has all the main things I could want or wish for out of Bannerlord, and I can't imagine anyone generally opposing it, besides Spinozart.

They were not unreasonable requests either, features that were promised and features that were in previous games that are missing in Bannerlord, are what anyone would expect at the bare minimum. Features such as minor factions already in the game are so useless that they might as well not even be there, but the core idea could be expanded upon wonderfully, yet we all know such things won't happen without the modders, as the only things promised at this point are bug fixes and balancing. At this rate, and the rate it has taken for the entire game to get to this point, that alone will not likely happen for at least another six months to a year.

OP's post is easily one of the best on here concerning Bannerlord. Even if just SOME of that content from the roadmap was implemented, I'd be happy, as it's more than I'm expecting. It's just weird to think that after the game is finally "complete", mods will probably do more for this game than TW did in five years.

 

[Mad Vader]

I can't be the only one who was unimpressed with Duh's response.

That was just the preamble. We are all expecting the real response to the OP suggestions any day now. It's much harder for Duh to put it together as he needs to talk to Taleworlds bigwigs about various decisions, including what he may say or not.

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

That was just the preamble. We are all expecting the real response to the OP suggestions any day now. It's much harder for Duh to put it together as he needs to talk to Taleworlds bigwigs about various decisions, including what he may say or not.

Nah, I'm busy with work in the week, that's the biggest delay

 

[Blood Gryphon]

That was just the preamble. We are all expecting the real response to the OP suggestions any day now. It's much harder for Duh to put it together as he needs to talk to Taleworlds bigwigs about various decisions, including what he may say or not.

lmao all good duh

 

[ShakenSpeare]

That was just the preamble. We are all expecting the real response to the OP suggestions any day now. It's much harder for Duh to put it together as he needs to talk to Taleworlds bigwigs about various decisions, including what he may say or not.

That's good, then.

Nah, I'm busy with work in the week, that's the biggest delay

Even if I or others seem grumpy and pessimistic, everyone does appreciate and thank you for your attention and time.

 

[five bucks]

You can read back my statements, my main concerns are the Category 4 and the fact that this roadmap is self-claimed as being representative of players community. 90% of 143 peeps on one single English forum does not represent a majority.

Yes, but you don't seem to have read my reply which answers those things.

Re: category 4, I used logic to explain it. If you agree companies should do their best to deliver the product to the customer as it was advertised, and if they have limited time and can't do everything, then you have to agree they should prioritize delivering to the customer. Because otherwise, they are not doing their best.
Re: the community representation, like I said, I didn't gather feedback from just this forum. Elsewhere too: reddit, steam community and youtube, the three other major places Bannerlord's community is.
People on those sites have almost exactly the same complaints as people on this forum. And it's all on the list.

But I find it strange and a little bit arrogant to think that TW is not capable of managing its own project, especially this one.

We kind of started getting that impression when the development took 8 years, and the game is still nowhere near done despite being past its initial release date.

If you also look at Glassdoor reviews of Taleworlds, plus what multiple employees are actually saying, then with all these things together, it becomes very clear that TW is having difficulty keeping everyone on the same page.

Possibly because said page (roadmap of long term goals) does not physically exist, and is all in Armagan's head, so the other devs have to consult him constantly. If the long term plan was in physical form for all of TW and the community to see, there would be less time wasted double-checking everything with management and between different branches, and less community anger not knowing what the hell TW's plans are. And if Armagan was truthful about wanting to bring the game to the community's expectations, then said roadmap would need to be based on community feedback. All I've done here is cut out a step for TW by doing exactly what they would do in that situation: trawl forums for feedback.

 

[WhyAmIHere]

If the "preamble" to the response amounts to "no because We Have A Vision(TM) For Bannerlord" then I guess the response itself will be "no because We Have A Vision(TM) For Bannerlord (in more words)"

 

[Mad Vader]

If the "preamble" to the response amounts to "no because We Have A Vision(TM) For Bannerlord" then I guess the response itself will be "no because We Have A Vision(TM) For Bannerlord (in more words)"

That's the plan. We are trying to catalogue the number of ways someone can say "no".

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

That's the plan. We are trying to catalogue the number of ways someone can say "no".

I know about nein.

 

[Askorti]

I know about nein.

Duh's next response to the OP is gonna be split into 9 paragraphs confirmed!

 

[Life_Erikson]

Ok thats fine but regardless of small requests or differing visions between community and Devs - do you and Armagon and the other Devs believe this is a cohesive game? You can have vastly differing vision, but give us a complete cohesive game that makes sense and is satisfying. Like the poster above noted how the Tournaments used to be interlocked to the relationship between town and player and feasts and renown -why has this type of dynamic backpeddled? that makes zero sense to us -where is the vision and direction on these types of matters as well as reasons for peace and war when lords used to talk to you about their reasoning freely - is this stuff to come or is that your vision of a finished game?

It just makes no sense and just stating that "you dont have to give in to all our various requests" is a cop out to these larger questions. Im totally game to forgo my personal wishes for this game if you wanna deliver me YOUR version of a polished cohesive and complete game but as it is now it seems direction has been lost and your just cleaning up around the edges and letting us deal with it as it is.

Exactly. The game is barely working as designed. (Sieges for example) And that is even without going into detail what features are missing from what we had in Warband. Not to speak about features which were promised during devlogs. (I don't expect any of them to be in the game when its finished and have made my peace with it.)

Anyway, Spinoza here has an interesting take, he bought a vision and not a product. It's what a stereotypical Apple customer would say, they can do whatever they want as long as there is an Apple logo on it. Or a North Korean voter.
He's also implying that you paid too little to demand improvements and should have paid for hundreds or thousands pizzas to have the moral right to complain.
And anyway, you are not "the community" and no one is, so no one has the right to demand improvements (only Youtubers). If the Chinese and Russain communities don't support your suggestions in their languages, you don't have any credibility and you are basically a representative of some small village in England.
At this point, it's a quality white knight parody and parodies, like dogs, are fun.

Thats a good point you got there. Sure the Devs can do what they want with their game and we, the costumers, can only decide wether we want to buy it or not. But as you already mentioned this becomes tricky when the product is unfinished and changes over time.

You should only buy Early Access if you are satisfied with the product it currently is and not the product you imagine it to be.
However: there is a legal argument to be had about promises the devs give about future updates to the game. If these promises are given and are not fulfilled then this is a legal issue and can result in a reason for a refund. Thats why Devs in early access are usually quite vague in what they want to implement and what not. This explains fully to me the lack of communication from TaleWorlds about specifics.

But I think that the devlogs before early access already form such a promise of what the game will (or should) be. And whilst the argument can be made that this was years ago and a lot can change in developement during that time, I think it is still a valid point. The devs intentionally build up expectations to sell their product. Expectation they now cannot fulfill.

I think this is the reason why TaleWorlds avoided early access for so long. We beat them to it and it doesn't seem like it was a very good idea for both of us.

 

[Spinozart1]

Yes, but you don't seem to have read my reply which answers those things.

Re: category 4, I used logic to explain it. If you agree companies should do their best to deliver the product to the customer as it was advertised, and if they have limited time and can't do everything, then you have to agree they should prioritize delivering to the customer. Because otherwise, they are not doing their best.
Re: the size of the poll, I asked you if you genuinely think the majority of everyone who plays Bannerlord is even likely to disagree with that list.
And finally, like I said, I didn't gather feedback from just this forum. Elsewhere too: reddit, steam community and youtube, the three other major places Bannerlord's community is.
People on those sites have almost exactly the same complaints as people on this forum. And it's all on the list.

We kind of start getting the impression they when the pre-release period stretches into 8 years, and the early access period goes over its projected completed period despite being nowhere near complete.

If you also look at Glassdoor reviews of Taleworlds, plus what multiple employees are actually saying, then with all these things together, it becomes very clear that TW is having difficulty keeping everyone on the same page.

Possibly because said page does not physically exist, and is all in Armagan's head, so the other devs have to consult him every single time they want to know what to do. If the page (roadmap) was in physical form for both the community and TW employees to see, there would be less time wasted double-checking everything with management and between different branches, and less community anger not knowing what the hell TW was planning. And if Armagan was truthful about wanting to bring the game to the community's expectations, then said roadmap would need to be based on community feedback. All I've done here is cut out a step for TW by doing exactly what they would do in that situation: trawl forums for feedback.

As I already said, your OP is a good quality feedback and well resuming what is asked by part of the players (myself included, but not everything).
I appreciate you to allow the debate, but as it was already mentioned, maybe we are "derailing".

So, while I understand your points, I have voted "no" for several reasons:

• Cat 4 statement is not correct.
• Poll is not relevant.
• Some of the suggested features are not needed (feasts, scripted companions, manhunters, skill books, sword sisters).
• Some features I would like to see are missing (more goods to trade, more workshops type to choose from, towns cannot be attacked without taking nearby castles first, do not allow AI to fight with recruits-only armies, increase armies cost-up in ennemies territories, weather conditions during battles,...)

Now if you want, you may check some more arguments that I have in mind.
But it doesn't really help the purpose of your OP, it's up to you.

隐藏: Category 4

You may be logical, I'm factual.
How the game was advertized was not contractual.
Paying for an EA does not give any right to decide on how the game should be developped.
We don't have a clue on how the develoment is actually organized because it is confidential process, like all companies.
With "if" assumptions we can think about unlimited possiblities, yet none of them would be accurate.
The emotion, the hype around this game is the main reason (and covid also) of all the existing negativity.

隐藏: Size of the poll

Of course a lot of players would agree with your list, especially if you took time to gather ideas trough different platforms.
But your poll is a "Yes" or "No" type. That means a lot of people will select "yes" while not agreeing with all the points.
It is leading to bias, but does not systemically represent the reality.
Try to think in a different way, you selected the ideas via your own perception, using one language. It is already 2 biases.
Then you are creating a poll with 2 divises choices.
Regarding the "voters", we already know that a lot of them are not satisfied, and will just say "yes". Not that they completely agree, but just because they are angry. Others will just read, partly agree or disagree but will not vote, etc...
As you can see, it is difficult to give a correct interpretation of the results of such poll.
And my intial point is that there is no "one" community.

隐藏: Assumptions

You are using words like "possibly", "getting impression" which are only assumptions.
Just like the argument about the devilish "Armagan".
"plus what multiple employees are actually saying" are you referring to mexxico's personnal comments about decision making. While I valuate its transparancy, unfortunately his words may be extrapolated and even be used against any future annoucement from TW.
He is a great dev, but he is also a normal person with frustrations etc and it doesn't necessarely reflect the actual working conditions by TW.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

[...]

I think this is the reason why TaleWorlds avoided early access for so long. We beat them to it and it doesn't seem like it was a very good idea for both of us.

Fans wanted to get our hands on the game as soon™ as possible, however most of us knew that giving Bannerlord time would always result in a better product. Nobody expected that after Armagan's statement at E3 2017 where he said - and I quote: Yeah, we're doing the finishing touches. When we're sure of it, when we're sure that the product won't result in negative feedback from the players, we'll release it (source); that the game was finally released as EA and under the gamability conditions that it did in both SP and MP.

 

[Life_Erikson]

Fans wanted to get our hands on the game as soon™ as possible, however most of us knew that giving Bannerlord time would always result in a better product. Nobody expected that after Armagan's statement at E3 2017 where he said - and I quote: Yeah, we're doing the finishing touches. When we're sure of it, when we're sure that the product won't result in negative feedback from the players, we'll release it (source); that the game was finally released as EA and under the gamability conditions that it did in both SP and MP.

Do you mean expectations were higher or lower then what was met when the game shipped as EA?
I personally expected it at the time to be in state of features like Warband with most of the promised features still to come (including bugs, glitches and optimization issues of course which is expected for EA). At least that is what I expected due to what TW communicated to us at this point.

Edit: I think I got you. Nobody believed it would be this messy because Armagan said they would only release if they could make sure it is up to standard.

 

[Life_Erikson]

• Some of the suggested features are not needed (feasts, scripted companions, manhunters, skill books, sword sisters).
• Some features I would like to see are missing (more goods to trade, more workshops type to choose from, towns cannot be attacked without taking nearby castles first, do not allow AI to fight with recruits-only armies, increase armies cost-up in ennemies territories, weather conditions during battles,...)

This is highly subjective on your part.
Feasts were an important feature for Warband. They provided worldbuilding and immersion and also served practical interests like relationship bonuses and the ability to meet most lords of a kingdom at once.
Scripted companions are what I see as a highly missed feature. Look at the memes about Jeremus alone. I understand that they cut them out because of the dynamic life and death system though.
Skill books would also be a feature that I would have expanded upon instead of cutting it but I guess this really is subjective.
I agree with you on manhunters and sword sisters though.

The features you presented I would all pretty much agree with. But this is not what OP is about. This isn't about telling TW what to do, it is about reminding them what they promised.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

This is highly subjective on your part.
Feasts were an important feature for Warband. They provided worldbuilding and immersion and also served practical interests like relationship bonuses and the ability to meet most lords of a kingdom at once.
Scripted companions are what I see as a highly missed feature. Look at the memes about Jeremus alone. I understand that they cut them out because of the dynamic life and death system though.
Skill books would also be a feature that I would have expanded upon instead of cutting it but I guess this really is subjective.
I agree with you on manhunters and sword sisters though.

The features you presented I would all pretty much agree with. But this is not what OP is about. This isn't about telling TW what to do, it is about reminding them what they promised.

+1

That's the plan. We are trying to catalogue the number of ways someone can say "no".

Yep.