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Community Feedback-based EARLY ACCESS ROADMAP - ready for you, Taleworlds!

Does this roadmap represent your basic wants for Bannerlord?

  • Yes

    Votes: 254 86.7%
  • No

    Votes: 39 13.3%

  • Total voters
    293

Currently viewing this thread:

Spinozart1

Sergeant
A quick question for you @Demoulius . If you see a random street protest you know nothing about and some riot cops beating a protester, what is your first thought:
A. Police brutality must be stopped.
B. He must have deserved it.
Is the street protest about the so called "never ending development of Bannerlord"?
I can't wait to see what kind of metaphor you could find out this time...
 

Demoulius

Regular
A quick question for you @Demoulius . If you see a random street protest you know nothing about and some riot cops beating a protester, what is your first thought:
A. Police brutality must be stopped.
B. He must have deserved it.
I....fail to see what your hypothetical street protest has to do with Bannerlord having or not having a road map?
 

five bucks

Sergeant at Arms
What I am against is the (even higher) expectations that instantly rises up with people who then feel they are somehow entitled to stuff. And are entitled to that stuff faster.
Well people are entitled to get what they paid for. Can you agree?
I agree it is unreasonable to want Taleworlds to turn Bannerlord into a game with grand strat as deep as CK3, and rpg mechanics as deep as KCD or Witcher.
For every 1 helpfull and constructive post that you can find you can probably find 3-4 or even 5 posts that are just people complaining about things not beeing finished yet, complaining that things are unbalanced or other posts of that nature. Some of the threads quikly devolve into people bickering about what the game is or should be. To say that all or most of the posts in the forums are constructive is beyond parody honestly.
I didn't say constructive but I did say reasonable. It is unconstructive but reasonable to complain when something you paid for is hugely delayed. It is reasonable, even if rarely constructive, to disagree about the direction the game should take with other forum users, if you're giving a proper argument. It is very very very reasonable and constructive to complain that an area of the game is imbalanced, because a major reason of early access is for Taleworlds to gather feedback on things like balance.
The game is in EARLY ACCES. They said they EXPECTED to be in early acces AT LEAST a year. People dont bloody understand what 'expect' means nowadays
If it had no meaning at all, why would they write it on the store page? They created an expectation, failed to meet it, and so they should make a roadmap to reassure the people who paid them that they have an overarching long-term plan, now that the original deadline is missed.
Working from home very much slows things down.
Please refer to @qwerrecd42 's post.
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
If it had no meaning at all, why would they write it on the store page? They created an expectation, failed to meet it, and so they should make a roadmap to reassure the people who paid them that they have an overarching long-term plan, now that the original deadline is missed.
100%
 

Demoulius

Regular
Well people are entitled to get what they paid for. Can you agree?
I can certainly agree with that. Also all people who paid for the game got exactly what they are entitled to. To play the game while it is beeing worked on. Which TW provides.

I didn't say constructive but I did say reasonable. It is unconstructive but reasonable to complain when something you paid for is hugely delayed. It is reasonable, even if rarely constructive, to disagree about the direction the game should take with other forum users, if you're giving a proper argument. It is very very very reasonable and constructive to complain that an area of the game is imbalanced, because a major reason of early access is for Taleworlds to gather feedback on things like balance.

What is and what isent reasonable is subjective. If someone approaches me in the street and asks me to give him 10 bucks because 'come on, you can certainly miss it' its reasonable to him and not to me. I wouldnt say that most forum posts are reasonable either. TW said they estimated to need a year at least. Theres 2 things that people arent reading in that sentance. 'estimate' and 'at least'.

'At least' means that you need that set time at the very least and implies that they need more time aside from that. This was before Corona became an issue so whatever timeline they had (that they never shared mind you) so we dont even know if they are or arent on time.

Estimate means that the timeframe they gave was a guess. They dont know before hand how long they need so asking for the game now, now that a year is passed is abit....entitled.

So they are saying 'we guess that we need at least a year but arent sure on the complete timeframe' and people read that as 'the game is complete in a year'. Thats mostly what ive got a problem with, and a timeframe posted by them will just add fuel to the fire of peoples expectations.
If it had no meaning at all, why would they write it on the store page? They created an expectation, failed to meet it, and so they should make a roadmap to reassure the people who paid them that they have an overarching long-term plan, now that the original deadline is missed.
Im not sure what you mean? What has no meaning? What are all these expectations and promises that people keep talking about? I have the feeling I missed some grand presentation where they were throwing promises and features left right and centre and I missed it :meh:
This is what is said on their store page before you buy the game:

Early Access Game​

Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.​

Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. Learn more
Im honestly not seeing the promises that they broke to be honest. Theyre even warning you not to buy it if you arent excited to play a half finished game.

Please refer to @qwerrecd42 's post.
That 1 line out of a paragraph that you quoted was a direct response to him. How companies work and cooperate differs from company to company. Lines that company A can do it so certainly company B are basicly anecdotal.

Then if you also know that the way the company handles communication is abit.... wonky then WFH wont be very beneficial im sure.
 

Ser Jon

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It's a bit strange to think that if we had half of this road map the game would be in an incredible way.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
@five bucks
I went trough different posts and could see some confirmation of future implementations related with Cat. 2
Maybe you already noticed them but just in case.
running right past friendly towns/castles when fleeing instead of taking refuge (partially fixed in 1.5.9),
Confirmed being addressed in 1.5.11

AI won't surrender in sieges even if they are starving
Starvation being addressed in 1.5.10

allow them to be used as a source of noble troop recruitment.
Should be addressed in 1.5.10
 

five bucks

Sergeant at Arms
@five bucks
I went trough different posts and could see some confirmation of future implementations related with Cat. 2
Maybe you already noticed them but just in case.

Confirmed being addressed in 1.5.11


Starvation being addressed in 1.5.10


Should be addressed in 1.5.10
Thanks!
I can certainly agree with that. Also all people who paid for the game got exactly what they are entitled to. To play the game while it is beeing worked on. Which TW provides.
People who bought this particular Early Access game bought that and also the store page indicated to them that they were buying a product which would eventually be completed, probably within a year, with communication from Taleworlds that they would bring the game to their expectations.
What is and what isent reasonable is subjective.
True enough.
TW said they estimated to need a year at least. Theres 2 things that people arent reading in that sentance. 'estimate' and 'at least'.
'At least' means that you need that set time at the very least and implies that they need more time aside from that.
They didn't say at least. They said "we expect that the game will be in early access for around a year".
So asking for the game now, now that a year is passed is abit....entitled. Thats mostly what ive got a problem with, and a timeframe posted by them will just add fuel to the fire of peoples expectations.
Who is asking for the game now? Not me. I am asking for a long term plan. The OP post didn't even ask for a timeframe (though that would be nice). You didn't read it past the first 2 paragraphs, like you said. To be fair, I guess "roadmap" kind of implies a timeframe, but there is no single word for "long term list of plans" other than "roadmap".
I have the feeling I missed some grand presentation where they were throwing promises and features left right and centre and I missed it :meh:
Read their developer blogs, they were throwing promises left and right in those.
How companies work and cooperate differs from company to company. Then if you also know that the way the company handles communication is abit.... wonky then WFH wont be very beneficial im sure.
All software companies involve communication about code. I agree the pandemic clearly didn't help, but it is definitely not the main reason for Taleworlds working so slowly. As I have said, former employee reviews, things current employees have said, and the eight year development process pre-covid all show that Taleworlds has internal issues.
 

Demoulius

Regular
They didn't say at least. They said "we expect that the game will be in early access for around a year".
I looked back in the Q&A section on steam for their store page. You are right that they say around a year. The quote 'at least a year' was from another game that im in EA in and I mixed up the 2 quotes. So a mistake on my part, sorry about that. Still, thinking you need a year and then running into problems that result in needing more time is pretty common. Maybe because ive been a part of early acces titles before and saw it happen before im just not suprised by delays.

Who is asking for the game now? Not me. I am asking for a long term plan. The OP post didn't even ask for a timeframe (though that would be nice). You didn't read it past the first 2 paragraphs, like you said. To be fair, I guess "roadmap" kind of implies a timeframe, but there is no single word for "long term list of plans" other than "roadmap".
Ive read the entire OP since saying that and you are indeed not asking for a timeframe. But like you say yourself a roadmap generally has one included, even if the actual date is an internal one. Whenever I see roadmaps brought up people always throw a tantrem when goals on those roadmaps arent met (for whatever reason) and instead of giving people a list of things to look out for it makes people more impatient.

Guess im a cynic or have just been jaded by bad experiences. I dont see them gaining anything from actually posting one.
Read their developer blogs, they were throwing promises left and right in those.
Oh that might explain it. Ive stopped reading those a while back. I always took them more as 'look what we are working on!' posts then promises. Maybe the ones after I stopped reading upped up the game or I just wasent reading to much into them?
All software companies involve communication about code. I agree the pandemic clearly didn't help, but it is definitely not the main reason for Taleworlds working so slowly. As I have said, former employee reviews, things current employees have said, and the eight year development process pre-covid all show that Taleworlds has internal issues.
Yup, all im saying is Covid probably dident help. Sure its not THE reason for further delays, buts its contributing.

Gotta say man mad respect for the amount of effort the OP must have taken. Fact that this thread is on its 27th page should be indication for the devs that this thread has the peoples attention. Hope they do something with it.
 
When Taleworlds started the Early Access, they said they would use community feedback to bring the game to the level that the community expects, and they aimed to release in a year. But that's not quite happening. A year has passed, but the game is nowhere near finished. Things the community has complained about for a long time still aren't fixed, while other areas of the game receive development nobody asked for.
Considering the amount of bugs, crashes and performance issues the game had since its release until recently (not counting the perks, still not 100% implemented), I'm not that disappointed. We cannot expect dozens of suggestions to be implemented if the game is unstable and the perks are only place holders. Now the situation is very different and I hope they will be more receptive to the community.
 

CrazyElf

Veteran
That's not a reason against a roadmap. Because people already complain development is too slow. And they're right. Bannerlord is nowhere near finished despite the store page saying it was estimated to release a month ago. It's not going to kill TW to hear the truth.

Also, the OP post doesn't have any deadlines in it.

If anything, I think a comprehensive long-term plan will reduce the total amount of complaining. Look at the immediate positive reaction from normally negative posters when Duh_ posted in this thread. Personally, I'm happier knowing that the game will be delayed and properly completed, than not knowing if the game will be delayed and never get properly completed.

I think that at this point, the tier 1 and 2 posts should have a very loose roadmap set.

It's ok if they fall behind (and development time is very hard to predict, speaking as someone who has been active in project management before), but at least a commitment to address these issues eventually would be a huge step in the right direction.



I second this, Realistic battle mod is one of the most popular mods on the nexus, an absolute must have to me to be able to enjoy the game.

The devs don't even need to go half as deep in realism as in that mod, just taking a few notes and inspirations from it would already improve tenfold the balance of battles and armors in general.


Yes - they will have to do their own testing and validation, etc, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.

It's why I pushed it so hard.

It would solve so many of the ongoing paper armor issues. They did eventually attempt after several months thanks to mexxico to address the snowballing issues, but there is so much left, such as armor, siege AI, etc, and I'm not going to rehash the OP, who has made a solid post about the issues.


Considering the amount of bugs, crashes and performance issues the game had since its release until recently (not counting the perks, still not 100% implemented), I'm not that disappointed. We cannot expect dozens of suggestions to be implemented if the game is unstable and the perks are only place holders. Now the situation is very different and I hope they will be more receptive to the community.


Yes - there is a lot more work on that front to do.

However as the game stabilizes, I think that expectations for missing or broken features are going to grow.
 

lmariachi

Recruit
Im honestly not seeing the promises that they broke to be honest. Theyre even warning you not to buy it if you arent excited to play a half finished game.
Just look on pre "release" weekly devs blog, on e3, gamescom videos and presentation. At the time of Steam Early Access release day there was no information that they cut off 90% of what they say game will have. I don't see 10% features of devs blog in game so far. The major point and dissapointment is that this game is really shallow to even compare it with Warband. Someone said it should have diplomacy like CK3 and rpg like KCD, for me to be even quarter of these will be more than expected.

My best line to describe it: Bannerlord with no banners and 8 colors to chose, what you see in video not appear in the game. Just like mobile game ads. Thus plus for no pay to look better than vanilla
 

Demoulius

Regular
I think the issue lies that people see those things as beeing solid promises? Its not uncommon for things that are beeing worked on to be ditched later on in the process. Things that they showed like taking over an alleyway and whatnot were clearly planned at some point as we see leftover things still in the game. But were either ditched, glitchy or to powerfull or whatnot.

I tend to watch things like that with a grain of salt to begin with to be perfectly honest. Games like fable and Bethesda games in general have taught me that the more ambitious a project is, the more has to be scrapped at some point. I think half of those devblogs were showcasing some things that internal people at TW were working on. Would it be cool if they managed to achieve everything they promised? Yeah obviously. But I dont hold it against them that some things had to be scrapped for whatever reason.

What I do hold against them is how backwards the combat AI has gotten though. What the actual ****? They had a working thing and managed to complety FUBAR that. How do you even manage to achieve that?
 
How do you even manage to achieve that?
Performance probably.
Let's say that each troop checks what's the best course of action N times per second. This makes it look more situationally aware, blocking attacks, responding to new threats etc.
This is also expensive in terms of CPU, so if someone decides to improve performance by halving the frequency of troop decisions, the troops would look more dumb and oblivious. But now their game works better for lower end PCs and most importantly for people in Taleworlds... consoles.
Too many decisions are made specifically with a future console port in mind at the expense of PC users.
 

Demoulius

Regular
Ive heard console ports mentioned a few times. Is it confirmed that TW is actually working on ports? And if they are. why dont they FIRST make sure it runs well on PC and THEN make sure their port runs well on the consoles?

Also arent the newest consoles supposedly powerhouses now? Make use of that fact and make the Router and Freezer work to run those bloody games damnit :grin:

Because if this is genuinely the reason behind the AI beeing dumbed down theyre basicly ****ting all over their excisting player base to 'maybe' get a new customer base in the console market.... Which doesent very smart to me.
 

Calabanar

Sergeant
Performance probably.
Let's say that each troop checks what's the best course of action N times per second. This makes it look more situationally aware, blocking attacks, responding to new threats etc.
This is also expensive in terms of CPU, so if someone decides to improve performance by halving the frequency of troop decisions, the troops would look more dumb and oblivious. But now their game works better for lower end PCs and most importantly for people in Taleworlds... consoles.
Too many decisions are made specifically with a future console port in mind at the expense of PC users.
I had assumed that's why they tuned it down. Isn't there a way to have a "total war" approach though?

By that I mean focusing the AI performance on the "borders" of formations, so the agents actively fighting and that have the biggest impact. Obviously this only works as long as there is some sort of density and uniformity in formations since as soon as agents start to disorganize this all goes out the window but... Perhaps that would bring insentive to have more proper formations instead of the blobs we still have right now? That way it would reduce the number of agents fighting at a time, with the added bonus of seing less quick failed strikes from the backlines. It would also be so much more aesthetically pleasing, especially when official banners are finally added.

Essentially, wouldn't it be possible to improve the AI performance but only on the frontline? For all I know it as well be what they're already doing, but it's always interesting to ask.
 

vonbalt

Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&B
Ive heard console ports mentioned a few times. Is it confirmed that TW is actually working on ports? And if they are. why dont they FIRST make sure it runs well on PC and THEN make sure their port runs well on the consoles?

Also arent the newest consoles supposedly powerhouses now? Make use of that fact and make the Router and Freezer work to run those bloody games damnit :grin:

Because if this is genuinely the reason behind the AI beeing dumbed down theyre basicly ****ting all over their excisting player base to 'maybe' get a new customer base in the console market.... Which doesent very smart to me.
It was, they said a few times consoles version will come later and a while ago mexxico said he was asked to start working more on the console version and that they wanted to dumb down the ai to make it run better there (decreasing the calculations each soldier make so making them dumber while they are already dumb as****)

Maybe it could work good if they made the formations work better and more cohesively to compensate the individual AIs making less calculations but i won't hold my breath the way the EA is developing..
 
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Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
It was, they said a few times consoles version will come later and a while ago mexxico said he was asked to start working more on the console version and that they wanted to dumb down the ai to make it run better there (decreasing the calculations each soldier make so making them dumber while they are already dumb as****)

Maybe it could work good if they made the formations work better and more cohesively to compensate the individual AIs making less calculations but i won't hold my breath the way the EA is developing..
I think mexxicos work was not related to solider combat (not his area), but actually about campaign map lord AI decisions.

Edit: found it
Of topic :
It become so hard reading texts when they contain small letters and big letters all mixed. Sorry to underline this but take it as an advice.

I am not fan of spending time for console works. They want me to make optimization at these campaign ai codes since summer. I always delayed it to make single player at PC better first. But it seems I cannot run away from this anymore.
 
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