Combos

[krol]

I think simple combos like "defend+attack" or "attack1+attack2" is good thing. Excellent sample is "Blade of Darkness". But afraid it may crash all balance...

 

[Worbah]

I'm not really in favor of combos. But you should be able to determine the type of attack you'll do. Have you played daggerfall? In DF you hold down the mouse button, if you drag your mouse to the right, you do a left-->right swing, and vice versa

 

[dadarkman]

I think you should be a combo, because you should be able to kill some1 while holding youre shield high

 

[Ferox]

I'm not really in favor of combos. But you should be able to determine the type of attack you'll do. Have you played daggerfall? In DF you hold down the mouse button, if you drag your mouse to the right, you do a left-->right swing, and vice versa

This is how I think as well, I dont like "combos"

 

[BetterNights]

I think you should be a combo, because you should be able to kill some1 while holding youre shield high

No, you shouldn't. Go, get a shield. And a sword. Now try to swing the sword with any usefulness while protecting yourself with the shield at the same time.

Doesn't work very well, does it?

 

[Eird-Way]

I think you should be a combo, because you should be able to kill some1 while holding youre shield high

No, you shouldn't. Go, get a shield. And a sword. Now try to swing the sword with any usefulness while protecting yourself with the shield at the same time.

Doesn't work very well, does it?

Yeah, that's definitely not how the Romans conquered the world

Real life fighting techniques SHOULD involve "combos" of a sort. I mean, it's how you practice. Muscle memory is the goal of any physical training.

How about this: Hold both mouse buttons and you'll be stuck in place. Then use the WASD keys to move back and forth between the four primary stances (plow, ox, roof and fool).Some of these transitions would cause you to slash, some not.

Example: "W" would be "From the roof" (sword vertical over head) from here, "A" would tilt you sideways to the "Ox" stance but "S" would be a powerful downward strike to "The Fool" (tip resting on ground in front) Ox to plow is a sideways slash. Double-tap "Plow" for a thrust. Double tap "Fool" to go to the "Tail" stance, and from there go to "Ox" or "Roof" for a powerful upward swing. etc. etc. Certain transitions would cause the character to take one step forward or backward. Sword-form combos would result from stringing these together, because of the body's momentum and the simple matter of having the weapon where you want it to start for the next swing. If we're going for realism something like this absolutely needs to be done. Momentum (speed and damage) should build as the sequence progresses, and each swing should have different reach, speed and damage. Example - start at the plow (D), sword pointing forward from hip. Hit D - A - D - A a few times to perform horizontal body strokes from plow to ox, but eventually follow ox with roof and then fool to finish the sequence with a strike down the center. Animate this believably and have the animations transition fluidly into one another and you will have interactive combat a million times more awesome than that in Knights of the Old Republic.

Seriously, go read the ARMA site and try this with a broom or something. It makes perfect sense and would look great. The moves would have to be less free-form than in real life for the sake of playability, but it would give dueling the depth and authenticity it needs.

And no I'm not talking about "Die By the Sword". That game was nifty but had no basis in real martial arts and felt extremely wonky. Actually, the character "Nightmare" from Soul Calibur 2 sort of uses some of the real techniques.

Also, I don't know if this has been argued over, but as to balancing shielded and unshielded fighting. The game already has characters recognizing which direction to block from, so take this one step further and make them actively parry by pushing away the enemy's blow with the flat of the blade. If the player just sits there and holds down the RMB the character will turn the blows, but the closer the timing the greater the attacker is thrown off. Hit parry at the last moment and create an opening in the enemy's defenses. Shields will save you, but a quick weapon parry will create an opening to turn the tide of the duel. Shields still parry, of course, just not as quickly, and take less damage the better you parry. If you just sit there behind your shield, it should get hacked up quickly (quicker than what happens now).

This is the best game ever, by the way.

Have your talented animator(s) study the essays at the ARMA website like holy scripture.

 

[JohnathanStrange]

I think you should be a combo, because you should be able to kill some1 while holding youre shield high

No, you shouldn't. Go, get a shield. And a sword. Now try to swing the sword with any usefulness while protecting yourself with the shield at the same time.

Doesn't work very well, does it?

I don't know about that. I just spent three hours in the backyard with my sword and shield practicing and I'm getting pretty good. Plus I'm scaring the hell out of the neighbors. Take that Swadian dogs!

 

[nightrunn3r]

Yeah, that's definitely not how the Romans conquered the world Very Happy

Real life fighting techniques SHOULD involve "combos" of a sort. I mean, it's how you practice. Muscle memory is the goal of any physical training.

How about this: Hold both mouse buttons and you'll be stuck in place. Then use the WASD keys to move back and forth between the four primary stances (plow, ox, roof and fool).Some of these transitions would cause you to slash, some not.

Example: "W" would be "From the roof" (sword vertical over head) from here, "A" would tilt you sideways to the "Ox" stance but "S" would be a powerful downward strike to "The Fool" (tip resting on ground in front) Ox to plow is a sideways slash. Double-tap "Plow" for a thrust. Double tap "Fool" to go to the "Tail" stance, and from there go to "Ox" or "Roof" for a powerful upward swing. etc. etc. Certain transitions would cause the character to take one step forward or backward. Sword-form combos would result from stringing these together, because of the body's momentum and the simple matter of having the weapon where you want it to start for the next swing. If we're going for realism something like this absolutely needs to be done. Momentum (speed and damage) should build as the sequence progresses, and each swing should have different reach, speed and damage. Example - start at the plow (D), sword pointing forward from hip. Hit D - A - D - A a few times to perform horizontal body strokes from plow to ox, but eventually follow ox with roof and then fool to finish the sequence with a strike down the center. Animate this believably and have the animations transition fluidly into one another and you will have interactive combat a million times more awesome than that in Knights of the Old Republic.

Seriously, go read the ARMA site and try this with a broom or something. It makes perfect sense and would look great. The moves would have to be less free-form than in real life for the sake of playability, but it would give dueling the depth and authenticity it needs.

And no I'm not talking about "Die By the Sword". That game was nifty but had no basis in real martial arts and felt extremely wonky. Actually, the character "Nightmare" from Soul Calibur 2 sort of uses some of the real techniques.

Also, I don't know if this has been argued over, but as to balancing shielded and unshielded fighting. The game already has characters recognizing which direction to block from, so take this one step further and make them actively parry by pushing away the enemy's blow with the flat of the blade. If the player just sits there and holds down the RMB the character will turn the blows, but the closer the timing the greater the attacker is thrown off. Hit parry at the last moment and create an opening in the enemy's defenses. Shields will save you, but a quick weapon parry will create an opening to turn the tide of the duel. Shields still parry, of course, just not as quickly, and take less damage the better you parry. If you just sit there behind your shield, it should get hacked up quickly (quicker than what happens now).

This is the best game ever, by the way.

Have your talented animator(s) study the essays at the ARMA website like holy scripture.

Forms would be cool and very immersive, but think of how hard it would be to have to hit 4 keys just to perform a single slash. Think of the learning curve. It would take forever to remember all the keystrokes to perform different moves. Althought it would be cool to be able to actually fence instead of randomly hack.

 

[corksacker69]

I like the idea, but it would be like learning speical moves in street fighter 2 all over again. somthing smiliar but with simpler controls would be neat, and would require more though when in battle. AI would also have to be retooled to use these stances, and use them in the best possible situations, which might get just a little too complex.

 

[Eird-Way]

That's the thing, it really boils down to "Sword up, sword down, sword left, sword right" Go from left to right and you've got a horizontal slash. It would actually be about as complicated as the boxing system in Chronicles of Riddick, except that it would look way cooler.

I'm dead serious. Get pictures of the stances, grab a broom and see what I mean. Swordfighting is more complex than block-and-hack, but it's not as convoluted as you guys seem to think (or as I made it sound, rather).

Seriously, look at Nightmare. He starts in something like plow and has one move that takes him to something like tail and one that's vaguely like fool. I'm talking 5 positions, so that's a total of 25 transitions, only about half of which are attacks.

It's not even like streetfighter. It about as complicated as Mortal Kombat without special moves. And as for the AI, it's just a matter of giving it routines that can randomly branch.

The game already has a sort of "Prince of Persia" mechanic, which makes it infinitely more fun than Morrowind. It just needs to go one step further to be a truly satisfying gameplay centerpiece.

FURTHERMORE if you animate these simple sword forms as beautifully and as authentically as you have animated the horses, THIS GAME WILL DROP JAWS.

 

[Worbah]

I think that the Daggerfall way of combat would be simpler, and it could be utilised by all melee weapons. Imagine Nightmare with a dagger. Wouldn't really work, would it? The one in DF is easy. You've got thrust, left->right,right->left, upper left corner->lower right corner, upper right corner-> lower left corner, and overhead chop. It's a fairly simple system. Not like the one in Die By The Sword.

 

[fishingbear]

How about this: Hold both mouse buttons and you'll be stuck in place. Then use the WASD keys to move back and forth between the four primary stances (plow, ox, roof and fool).Some of these transitions would cause you to slash, some not.

I would love it if the game could have the 4 basic forms for longswords. But adding that in would cause a lot of problems. For example, it's not all about the sword positions, it's also about footwork. While it might be possible to run with a sword in "roof" or "plow" position, would it also be possible to effectively swing your sword at a retreating foe several times? I don't know. You did address speed and momentum with your proposed system, but it would require a pretty drastic rework of the combat system to implement in that form.

Also, those stances are quite limited. They won't work as well for shorter weapons such as shortswords or daggers, shield & weapon combos, different blade types like the fighting axe or morningstar, and most importantly, they're designed for one-on-one combat. "Roof" looks menacing and all, but when you've got a horde of bloodthirsty sea raiders bearing down on you from all sides, it would be pretty silly and probably not do you much good. Not that there's anything that's going to do you much good, aside from high-tailing it out of there. I'm not trying to shoot your idea down, it just seems more appropriate for a dueling game, as opposed to a "mob combat" type of game.

If the player just sits there and holds down the RMB the character will turn the blows, but the closer the timing the greater the attacker is thrown off. Hit parry at the last moment and create an opening in the enemy's defenses.

I think this is an outstanding idea. I like going through the training routine at the beginning of the game because it really helps you hone the combat timing. Adding in this mechanic would make it even more fun, and would make a quaterstaff vs. sword-and-shield fight less biased. To add in more variables (we all love variables, don't we?) different weapons could have different parrying statistics, with maybe some giving you a bigger front-end window for making an effective parry, and others with a narrower window but a more forceful opening if you do manage to get the timing right. Still other weapons might have an increased speed or increased damage for a single attack after parrying, to reflect it's ability to quickly or more powerfully follow-up the parry with a counterattack.

All said, combat does need more animations and a little more control, although it's already better than 99% of everything out there, and I'm certain the team is working on putting some more of both in.

 

[Worm]

I think the real problem with the combat engine is that some people think there should be a balance between a footman and a mounted unit. It should be uneven but there are some very important changes.

• KE = 1/2 MV^2, right? - When I go faster and slam a guy with a weapon I do much more damage. I don't know if the inverse is true in the game. If I am flying very quickly at a ground unitme he should recieve a modifier based on how fast I am going. If two horses are travelling at one another the damage should be very high, if they are travelling in the same direction the damage bonus doesn't seem like it should be there.
  
• How do I hit a guy in the legs? - I just realized I don't get leg armor.
  
• Rearing your own horse - I mean come on!
  
• Choosing your attack - I've been okay slashing to the left or right when I use my horse, though I don't think there is any specific way to decide it.

I don't want to see forms because I think it would be too much work and would require targetting, it would be basically a revamping of the entire combat system. If you want that, make your own game.

 

[fishingbear]

On the average horsemen should be more powerful than footmen, but there are already some instances where footmen have a good chance at prevailing. A group of footmen in the water can be vicious and can very quickly cut your horse out from under you, for example. If new terrain types are added (something as simple as more trees), footmen would have a mobility advantage fighting in areas with more obstacles.

KE = 1/2 MV^2, right?

True. This game already models momentum-based multipliers better than almost any others out there. Tweaking it a bit to account for relative rather than absolute momentum, and adding in things like setting your spear for a mounted charge, would go a long way towards fleshing that out. I'm pretty sure they're working on this.

Choosing your attack - I've been okay slashing to the left or right when I use my horse, though I don't think there is any specific way to decide it.

If your targetting reticle is to the right of the horse, you will swing to the right, if it is to the left of the horse, you will swing to the left. If that's not what you meant, my apologies; I may have misread your sentence.

 

[Worm]

On the average horsemen should be more powerful than footmen, but there are already some instances where footmen have a good chance at prevailing. A group of footmen in the water can be vicious and can very quickly cut your horse out from under you, for example. If new terrain types are added (something as simple as more trees), footmen would have a mobility advantage fighting in areas with more obstacles.

I never fought in a forest, so I'm guess it doesn't happen when you do. Imagine, forest bandits! IN A FOREST.

KE = 1/2 MV^2, right?

True. This game already models momentum-based multipliers better than almost any others out there. Tweaking it a bit to account for relative rather than absolute momentum, and adding in things like setting your spear for a mounted charge, would go a long way towards fleshing that out. I'm pretty sure they're working on this.

Neato!

Choosing your attack - I've been okay slashing to the left or right when I use my horse, though I don't think there is any specific way to decide it.

If your targetting reticle is to the right of the horse, you will swing to the right, if it is to the left of the horse, you will swing to the left. If that's not what you meant, my apologies; I may have misread your sentence.

OOOOH! Though I guess it's similar for a person on foot?

 

[fishingbear]

As far as I know, your attack direction while on foot is mostly random (but with different animations for piercing vs. cutting weapons). I think I read they were going to try to put something in to make it more controllable, but don't quote me on that.

Actually don't quote me on anything, I tend to talk too much sometimes

 

[aw89]

Combos like in Conan and the like don't fit in the game, more realistic ways is just to hard to do without using the mouse, keyboard and pedals. (mouse for weapon, keyboard for veiw (look right, left, up and down) and pedals for forward backwards.)

 

[Worm]

I don't know if this is easy, but since the targetting reticle only seems to be used on a bow and your guy doesn't really swing up or down, or doesn't even need to. How about a Daggerfall-like weapon control where you hold the mouse and then swing your weapon as you want?

 

[Worbah]

I don't know if this is easy, but since the targetting reticle only seems to be used on a bow and your guy doesn't really swing up or down, or doesn't even need to. How about a Daggerfall-like weapon control where you hold the mouse and then swing your weapon as you want?

I've already suggested that.

 

[Worm]

I don't know if this is easy, but since the targetting reticle only seems to be used on a bow and your guy doesn't really swing up or down, or doesn't even need to. How about a Daggerfall-like weapon control where you hold the mouse and then swing your weapon as you want?

I've already suggested that.

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