Combat wishlist

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Simetrical

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As a fan of realistic combat, I think that there are a few flaws with the innovative and interesting combat model of Horse&Blade. Personally, I would keep the main ideas of offense/defense intact, but modified like so:

1) Different weapons would have different abilities to parry. Currently it's more of an all-or-nothing deal. Basically, the weight of a weapon, the strength and skill of its wielder, and the number of hands the wielder is using would be opposed to the strength and skill of the blocker and the number of hands he's using when blocking. This would mean that you would have trouble blocking a greataxe with a rapier, as it should be, but you could block a rapier with a dagger, also as it should be.

2) Anyone holding a shield would automatically use it to defend himself, whether or not he's actually using the block button. Instead, the block button would be used for a weapon parry all the time. If someone with a shield manually parries a weapon, the weapon would be parried by the weapon rather than by the shield. See point 5 for more on shields, however.

3) Anyone holding a thrust would effectively create a small wall in front of them. As long as they stay pointed toward an oncoming enemy, the enemy would have to parry their weapon or be unable to proceed past it. Usually, this would be a very simple matter, but cavalry would have great difficulty with this—the rider would be unable to parry a blow aimed at his horse's chest. He would have to ride around, or just attack the defender with a longer weapon. Anyone charging into a readied thrust would deal damage to themselves proportionate to their speed unless they parried it, but they would also knock aside the weapon and perhaps even knock over its wielder. Releasing the thrust would deal damage if not parried, but still maintain the wall. Again, this would mainly give polearms an advantage against cavalry.

4) Crouching. In addition to the obvious effect of being a smaller target for archery, anyone crouching with a polearm readied for a thrust would plant it. Planted weapons would be harder to knock aside, and the wielder wouldn't get knocked back if someone charged into the pike.

5) Shield functionality versus melee weapons would be changed. Rather than being absolute protection against the front, shields would provide only a percentage chance of blocking a blow. Normally, this chance would be very high, somewhere in the high 90s against a single assailant, although it would decrease somewhat as additional enemies attacked. The main decrease would be when making an attack—shields would still provide protection then, but a lot less, depending on Agility and shield skill. The protection drop would be reduced during a defensive attack (see point 7).

6) Shield functionality versus ranged weapons would be changed. The shield would provide percentage protection depending basically on its size alone. Again, this would decrease a great deal during an attack, but it wouldn't decrease at all during a defensive attack.

7) If the player holds down both the block and attack buttons at once while wielding a shield, he makes a defensive attack. This reduces the loss of shield protection during an attack, or eliminates it for ranged weapons, but the player's attack is substantially slowed.

:cool: Minimum ranges. Any weapon with significant reach (i.e., not a dagger, basically) would have some kind of minimum range, most often proportionate to its reach. Anyone within minimum range would be shoved (opposed Strength/Agility check to see if the shover succeeds) instead of attacked normally. This would disrupt the defender's attacks much like a normal attack would, so people wouldn't be subject to an instant death sentence just for having a greatsword equipped when someone is right next to them.

9) Point 8 applies only partially to weapons with especially long reaches (spears and up). These weapons' minimum range would be larger than the maximum shoving range. Enemies at longer range than the shoving range but shorter than minimum could only be slashed and hacked for low damage, rather than thrusting with the tip. The longer the weapon, the more cumbersome this attack, so that pikes and long lances are worthless once the enemy gets within reach.

Well, that was long-winded, but there's still a fair bit more to come. I can't go without my M&B fix. :wink: I doubt these will be implemented, but I always have liked making worthless suggestion lists.

-Simetrical
 
I like your shield function suggestion. On that note . . .

I think the game needs to be even more lethal, but with more ways of avoiding damage. For instance, one concept I have been toying with in pen-and-paper RPG'ing is that of a pool of "auto-dodge' or 'auto-parry' points which must be depleted before the character can actually be struck. In other words, they must 'damage' your agility away before they can catch you 'flat-footed' and damage your HP. And of course this pool would quickly recharge when not attacking or defending, resulting in a "shield" effect similiar to Halo's. Any situation where we aren't expected to believe the hero sleeps and heals after shedding buckets of blood is a good one. And of course, some situations would deplete this pool faster than others, and some would hit you regardless (attacked from behind, or exactly as your own attack connects, etc.)

Also, armor damage reduction should be lessened, with different armors giving different chances to completely deflect blows.
 
I REALLY like your idea concerning a defensive attack, as it makes no sense to drop your shield everytime you make a strike, and it would be more realistic. From what I've read about foot combat between knights, their goal was to get around their opponents shield while keeping him from getting past their own.

Making the probabilty of blocking an attack with your shield dependant on your skill would also make the shield skill usefull, right now its completely pointless. The chances of a good shield actually being destroyed in combat are extremely low (it's never happened to me and I have a shield skill of zero).
 
I disagree with the idea of automatic blocking.
Anyways i want to suggest, in combats people should be dismountable without beating their horses. For example a man should fall from his horse after recieving a powerful crouched lance damage etc.
 
Simetrical said:
2) Anyone holding a shield would automatically use it to defend himself, whether or not he's actually using the block button. Instead, the block button would be used for a weapon parry all the time. If someone with a shield manually parries a weapon, the weapon would be parried by the weapon rather than by the shield. See point 5 for more on shields, however.

I personally oppose this one, I love manual blocking with a shield. Automatic blocking and weapon parries would suck IMO.[/quote]
 
Gotta agree with Allegro and Maksha, one of the things I like most about this game is the involvement quick blocking gives you in combat.

But like I said earlier, I wouldn't mind if your shield skill determined how often you blocked successfully.
 
Part of the idea of making shields automatically block would be to make weapon parries possible and (hopefully) attractive, even when you're using a shield. At least in my opinion, weapon parries are even more interesting than shield parries, since you can't just sit there as long as you want with your weapon up and block everything (unless your opponent's using a thrusting-only weapon, of course).
Kniggit said:
You deserve to be slapped :lol: :wink:
Oops! :oops:

-Simetrical
 
When you've got a shield and a sword ... the shield's there to block with. The sword's there to strike with. It is generally, but not always, more effective to simply block with the shield.
On the whole I don't agree with most of your points, Simetrical, but I love 8; a minimum range would be excellent, and I would absolutely love to see a shove or kick or punch within that range.
 
I am absolutely against any percentage calculations in blocking (your shield proposal). The shift from skill to blind chance is always bad (this is no D&D).

As for point 3) (holding weapon against charging horseman), this would work only with polearms or with swords against a horseman without a lance.

Also - for kicks and punches in a swordfight - atacking with anything than your sword is a serious invitation to have it chopped off - permanently. The only exception is when the blades are locked - and this is not implemented in the game.
 
Personally, I do like point number 3, because that is something I miss in the game.
Any fighter who is not mounted stands hopelessly against a "wall" of mounted knights, for example.
The ability to effectivly ready yourself for a full-mounted charge of horses whilst you are still on foot would make the game much more interesting (and challenging as the enemy would have the same ability).
 
We shouldn't forget that more advanced features will be quite difficult to incorporate into AI. So far, the AI is quite good, also because the maps feature no walls and therefore pathfinding is not an issue.
 
Kamamura said:
I am absolutely against any percentage calculations in blocking (your shield proposal). The shift from skill to blind chance is always bad (this is no D&D).

As for point 3) (holding weapon against charging horseman), this would work only with polearms or with swords against a horseman without a lance.

Also - for kicks and punches in a swordfight - atacking with anything than your sword is a serious invitation to have it chopped off - permanently. The only exception is when the blades are locked - and this is not implemented in the game.

I thought blade lock was something that only happened in star wars. In reality, a slight angling can slide their sword away, so there is absolutely no point to pushing at it. A punch or shove could be good if there was a minium range, but until armagan adds lightsabres I doubt there will be lightsaber lock.
 
In that you are mistaken, Pope:

http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Th17.JPG
http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Th8.JPG


Star Wars of course did not invent it (or anything, at that matter). There are situations when the blades push against each other at short range, a form of balance full of tense. The side that stops pushing gets pummelled in the face with the hilt of the weapon.
 
Kamamura said:
I am absolutely against any percentage calculations in blocking (your shield proposal). The shift from skill to blind chance is always bad (this is no D&D).

I am also opposed to using a standard RPG system to determine hits and misses. One of the great things about M&B is the combat is much more interactive and intuitive than most RPGs.

However damage seems to somewhat random right now.
 
Istadan said:
When you've got a shield and a sword ... the shield's there to block with. The sword's there to strike with. It is generally, but not always, more effective to simply block with the shield.
Yes, but you've never wanted to avoid breaking your shield? I would generally prefer to save my shield's protection for ranged attacks, which I can't block with my weapon, or mass attacks.
Istadan said:
On the whole I don't agree with most of your points, Simetrical, but I love 8; a minimum range would be excellent, and I would absolutely love to see a shove or kick or punch within that range.
Minimum range is something of a no-brainer, yeah. One of the most common suggestions, I believe. But I think it would be a mistake to implement it without some way to stop long weapons from being worthless. Shoving is what came to mind.
Kamamura said:
I am absolutely against any percentage calculations in blocking (your shield proposal). The shift from skill to blind chance is always bad (this is no D&D).
I agree, really. The ideas behind points 1 and 5-7 was mainly to in the former case, make blocking more realistic in terms of what could block what, and in the latter cases, to make shields less uber against ranged weapons and mass melee attacks. An alternate idea for 1:

1b) As 1, but rather than a probabilistic chance, the player would have a smaller time window to effectively block for more disadvantageous matchups, and in sufficiently lopsided combinations (e.g., dagger vs. spear) blocking would be impossible.

As for 5-7, currently there's no real skill whatsoever involved in wielding a shield against ranged weapons or multiple melee attackers, so I don't view the introduction of chance as a loss. The main idea could doubtless be implemented otherwise, in such a way as to introduce skill to shield blocking, but I can't really think of how.
Kamamura said:
Also - for kicks and punches in a swordfight - atacking with anything than your sword is a serious invitation to have it chopped off - permanently.
Was that addressed to me? I would basically agree with you here, and I don't think I said anything to the contrary.
Kamamura said:
We shouldn't forget that more advanced features will be quite difficult to incorporate into AI.
Well, this is a wishlist. But I generally don't think most of these would be terribly difficult to implement, at least not inherently—they would obviously require time, but that's a given.

Another few suggestions for you all to critique:

10) Bows (not crossbows) would not be able to be fired effectively at point-blank range, at least not if the target is facing the archer. Simply moving next to an archer should be sufficient to ruin his aim until he can back up. Likewise for thrown weapons.

11) Movement speeds would be made more realistic. I'm sure there's somewhere to find real-life numbers, but basically, moving backwards should be a good bit slower than moving forwards, and armor shouldn't slow down the character so much. Also, Athletics wouldn't affect run speed very much, but see point 13.

12) Sprinting. A sprinting character would move a lot faster, but would have more trouble maneuvering, especially if wearing armor. You wouldn't be able to sprint backwards. Someone who's sprinting could get a charge attack just like a rider, with the possibility of doing extra damage due to speed.

13) Stamina. Quite straightforward, this. Horses and men both would have stamina. If you start to become fatigued, you'll gradually move just a bit more slowly. Several minutes' running and fighting would put you at a significant speed disadvantage compared to someone fresh. Athletics would allow you to lose stamina less quickly and regain it more quickly.

-Simetrical
 
10) Bows (not crossbows) would not be able to be fired effectively at point-blank range, at least not if the target is facing the archer. Simply moving next to an archer should be sufficient to ruin his aim until he can back up. Likewise for thrown weapons.

Don't quite understand your reasoning here. If they smack you with a sword you won't be able to shoot. Why wouldn't you be able to shoot if they haven't hit you, just because they're close?

I'm pretty sure I could plonk someone in the face with a crossbow if they were right next to me.
 
I too disagree with the idea of automatic blocking. Where's the skill in that?

Something that might be good is some form of sheild attack. I don't know how realistic it would be but it was always fun doing that in the roleplaying days of my misspent youth... so long ago... sigh.
 
Simetrical said:
5) Shield functionality versus melee weapons would be changed. Rather than being absolute protection against the front, shields would provide only a percentage chance of blocking a blow. Normally, this chance would be very high, somewhere in the high 90s against a single assailant, although it would decrease somewhat as additional enemies attacked. The main decrease would be when making an attack—shields would still provide protection then, but a lot less, depending on Agility and shield skill. The protection drop would be reduced during a defensive attack (see point 7).

-Simetrical

I would think that, since you are holding the shield on the left, any attacks aimed at your left would be blocked. I mean, it is kinda hard to block on your right with a big, clunky, shield while holding a sword.
 
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