Combat realism in Brytenwalda the discussion

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Life_Erikson

Master Knight
M&BWBNWVC
caddux said:
Please, can someone tell me if the skill loss is permanent? I'm starting the game again for the 3rd time because all my previous characters lost skill points right in the first battles. The skills that suffered loss appear in red, and when I advanced a level I'm not able to raise them to the maximum number my stats allow, as if the lost skill point was supposed to recover at some time. But I rested for days but the skills never came back to what it was.

Wrong topic. That's all I can say about it.  :neutral:

Post here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,157411.255.html

Skill loss is a feature you get when you die in battle btw. That's normal, but i don't know, if it is normal that you cannot skill your character back up in these skills after leveling up...  :???:
 

caddux

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
Sorry, but I thought that my issue had to do with "combat realism" as it deals with combat wounds. But anyway, sorry if I made a mistake.
And I just found out that my skill loss was due to shield penalties, not battle injuries! Thank you anyway!
 

Idibil

Grandmaster Knight
Changes for 1.34

Speed:
-Weaponspeed will be a bit slower than Warband Native speed

Ok, You speed improve with skills.

Damage:
-Weapondamage will be close to Warband Native
-Throwing Weapondamage will be way higher.

We had add some damage more, but native look us too high.

No more 2-handed axes. (Resizing the existing ones and making them onehanded)
A few axes could have well been two handed, especially some frankish axehammers.

Ok, we will do it.


-The 2-handed option for swords will be removed for all swords except longswords

Actually, you can use some longsword yet with 1h or 2 h.

-Normal Shields will be cheap, during ironrim shields will be still expencive. (like shields are in Brytenwalda now)

No ironrim in this time.

-Much lower health for shields
-Higher armor
-Shieldspeed will be lowered in particular for heavy types for exemple with iron rim

I think that brytenwalda have this yet.

Horses:
-Keeping the horsespeed in general but making it maybe a bit higher
-Lower horsecharge for smaller horses (to simulate shie)
-Higher horsecharge for bigger horses (to simulate a realistic charge)
-Less health for horses (To avoid that horses charge through shieldwalls)
-Troops in game will only use mid type horses (lower horses not adaptable for fight and higher horses too expencive)

-2 pts more to speed.
-Done
-They have more charge, but in this time, horse was a transporting the menm more than charge element. in fact the horses loaded against a tight formation of fear
However, you notice more the weight of the load to individual unit.
-depends on you mean by lower horse. Pony was using for war. In general, the horses were of little appeal

beowulf&grendel.gif



more:
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9159/pict1.png

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/5807/picts01.jpg

Armor:
-General rebalance
-Mainly less strengh required (Still about 8-10 or so for chainmail)
-More armor for Helmets

-any specifications? With the system of penalties by weight is well balanced armature
-If the average force in a man would be 15, 8 -10 is a small man, weak. A coat of mail can weigh 20 kg
-Ok, We will add enter 2 and 4 pts more of armor for helmets.

Shieldbash:
-New option to shieldbash while fighting. This will not bring the enemy down, but stun them.

Actually shieldbash do this  :???:

Polearm welding:
-You get the option to held your polearm closer (with less range) so you can survive an infight with shield and spear.

If enemy is wish near, use your knife, like AI.  :grin:

Removing/fixing/changing the weapon breakage:
-Weapon brakeage in Brytenwalda turned out to be way, way to high.
Now we've got some possiblities:
-Just removing it
-Fixing it, so it doesnt happen that often
-A new system (I was thinking of the system that Rus XIII century uses)

I think that last ajust here let good breaking system.

Bows:
-less arrows (about 20-25 or so would be right)
-more damage close to Warband Native but a bit less
-sharing out damage to bow AND arrow. (the arrow is an important part of bowdamage too)
-decrease reload speed slightly
-increase accuracy slightly

-It is more historical to 40 arrows.
-Add some damage to them, but less that native (I dont want superarchers in VII century)
-reload speed decrease with more lvl
-Idem
Be a good arches is difficult, you need training


Throwing Weapons:
-way more damage
-way less speed
-less accuracy

-Done
-something done here
-sure?

Especially horsemen should get more javelin ammo. It would be great for javelins to get a "charge bonus" as a javelin thrown by a warrior on a full speed horse would even deal more damage.

Interesting idea.

my sugestion is, reducing the ammo from 6 to 2 for javelins (3 for larger), and from 2 to 1 for throwing spears (2 for larger)

Mm, I take note
 

dutch81

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
Would it not be realistic to give the option of using weapons as 1 or 2 handed to far more weapons and giving clear advantage perhaps to using it 2 handed in terms of speed and damage with the trade off of not being able to use a shield for protection.  I don't want to lose more weapons in fact I would love to see a greater variety and just making certain weapons not native to England very rare but if you scour the country you might get lucky and find something tucked away in some shop here or there ... after-all we have a number of foreigners as companions could they not have brought some unique weapons of their culture it would add to the immersion.
 

Dalkar

Grandmaster Knight
Dutch's idea is cool. I don't know if scimitars were around in this time but it would be awesome if I could chop people up with one :twisted:
 

Idibil

Grandmaster Knight
dutch81 said:
Would it not be realistic to give the option of using weapons as 1 or 2 handed to far more weapons and giving clear advantage perhaps to using it 2 handed in terms of speed and damage with the trade off of not being able to use a shield for protection.  I don't want to lose more weapons in fact I would love to see a greater variety and just making certain weapons not native to England very rare but if you scour the country you might get lucky and find something tucked away in some shop here or there ... after-all we have a number of foreigners as companions could they not have brought some unique weapons of their culture it would add to the immersion.

all have ventages and disadvantages. Only some (fews) swords have 1h or 2h quality. If you use they with 2 hands you do more damage, but you lose shield protection.
Some renactors when lose his shield (broken shield) instinctively use their two hands on the hilt of his sword, Hard to tell if it is historic or not.


However, they are few swords.


By other side, we have apply this ideas thread to 1.34 yet  :grin:

 

dutch81

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
I think it should have a speed advantage as well because the recovery to ready your sword is much easier and more natural with two hands then it is with one.
 

Life_Erikson

Master Knight
M&BWBNWVC
dutch81 said:
I think it should have a speed advantage as well because the recovery to ready your sword is much easier and more natural with two hands then it is with one.

I simply cannot agree there.

If a sword has a hilt, which is so short, that your hands touch each other, you will slow down your strikes.
Because most of the swords (apart from some exceptions) where meant to be wielded one handed the hilts where that short.
 

dutch81

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
This is why I said it speeds the recovery not the actual strike the strike is slower perhaps but that is balanced out by greater force which is already represented in the game.
 

Life_Erikson

Master Knight
M&BWBNWVC
dutch81 said:
This is why I said it speeds the recovery not the actual strike the strike is slower perhaps but that is balanced out by greater force which is already represented in the game.

force = mass x speedup

That's all I can say about it.  :wink:
 

dutch81

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
Life_Erikson said:
dutch81 said:
This is why I said it speeds the recovery not the actual strike the strike is slower perhaps but that is balanced out by greater force which is already represented in the game.

force = mass x speedup

That's all I can say about it.  :wink:

I think it is a bit more complicated ...

http://www.thehaca.com/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts2.htm

and some more ...

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm

Check out this site it might have some interesting stuff for you.
 

dochtorgajo

Squire
For me the problem with wb is that horses move forward backward and turn in circles (and slooowly) and thats it for their movement. Big hp is compensation Id say and just putting it to half or so makes it no more realistic if horses are still rather hindrance than advantage in melee.

So Id like to ask if there is some way to improve horse movement options?

Like stepping to the side or speeding up more quickly etc. (maybe kicking  :mrgreen:)
 

danthegreat

Regular
I agree with alot of this stuff but what about missles reloading extemely slow i couldnt even use a bow because of extremely slow animation and i wouldnt increase the horse charge because the only way a soldier would take down a charging horse is a spear shooting him or being very lucky and shoving your sword up the gut of the horse when it charged you
 

jackx

Sergeant at Arms
Yes, let's make bows more powerful and faster, and horses more durable, because with only native and a dozen other mods to do it in, there's simply not enough opportunity for the player to become the hybrid horse-archer/heavy cavalryman of doom, death, destruction and running the AI into the ground in the most bland and boring fashion possible.

I for one like Brytenwalda because within the confines of the M&B engine and AI, it actually offers a different type of combat experience, not just more of the same with different models and textures.

Cavalry/horses are already OP when used by the player, and I'm not even referring to the horseback kiting/soloing that is common to the early game, but simply to the fact that the AI will always get charged in the flank/rear... and even if the horses do not instantly trample everyone to death, and some might even be killed themselves, this will break the AI's formation and cohesion, making them easy prey for your own troops.
Even if it's just you riding through the enemy from side to side before they reach your troops (whom you might then order to charge), it can change the balance drastically. The enemies' better shields, armour and weapons mean very little if your peasants are already in their face and laying into them with axes and picks by the time they recover from the ride-through.

Archery is a bit weak, but again, this mostly affects the AI, or a player trying to act as a machinegun - in battle, the player will run his archers out to his left flank, so once the AI starts attacking your shieldwall, they'll take arrows to the unshielded flank/rear. And since enemy cavalry will by then have ridden suicidally through a storm of thrown missiles into your wall of shields and spearpoints, there won't be any left to ride down your archers, and in skirmish mode, they're pretty much safe from any infantry that decides to go after them, even if you can't immediately spare some cavalry to chase them down as they peel off from the main fight. Or you simply attach a few of your own infantry to your "archer" group, who will then gang up on any stragglers that actually reach them and dispose of them in short order.

Why, in that situation, further tip the scales in the player's favour through improved stats for items the AI can hardly use with any efficiency at all?


Excuse the lengthy rant, and the sarcasm, but I happen to feel strongly about this.
 

shikaka

Squire
WB
jackx said:
Yes, let's make bows more powerful and faster, and horses more durable, because with only native and a dozen other mods to do it in, there's simply not enough opportunity for the player to become the hybrid horse-archer/heavy cavalryman of doom, death, destruction and running the AI into the ground in the most bland and boring fashion possible.


Well said man!
 

dochtorgajo

Squire
Well cavalry is useless as it is not a matter of strong horses but of too simple behaviour. All the horsemen just bunch together at one guy and get killed. Giving them less hp does no good for a unit almost twice as expencive in unkeep cost unless it is made effective another way. ( like prevent routinely charging in, missing their swing like they never trained how to do it and then stop with back exposed to infantrymen cutting them down)

More possible moves (and more fun hopefully) and less hit points for horses used by player would be good if its possible.

Maybe one thought about archery: My experience is that if bows have big damage and bad accuracy (try for example Blood and roses mod), this does nothing, as AI bowmen still fire twenty headshot in a minute each combined with huge damage so it ends up with huge reticule and inability to hit elephant from few feet away for me and useless armour for people on receiving end of a bow. Isnt it better to have globally less damage and more accuracy to balance it out?
 
Horsemen should be killed in this game imo. It's just not what warfare was about during this time. If I do have cavalry I dismount them once we enter battle. I don't even bother chasing down fleeing enemies. Not worth it.

But I think the mod could use that combat animation mod or whatever it is called. It makes combat much more fluid. Or at least look it.
 
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