Combat Controls

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Flaming Eyes

Sergeant
Hi, I would like to sugest some changes in the way we use the weapons.
I would like to have more control of the move I do.

Recently, I played a boxing game, "Heavy Weight Thunder", or something like that, well, the way you fight there is intresting. Then I have two way of sugestions, one based on that game, and the other is based in what I thought:

First:

To slash RtL*: hold LC, then move mouse to the left side (<), then release.
To slash LtR: hold LC, then move mouse to the right side (>), then release.
To slash UtD: hold LC, then move mouse back (v), then release.
To T: hold LC, then move mouse forward (^), then release.
To slash UtD left on horse: hold LC, then move mouse back and left (v+<), then release.
To slash UtD right on horse: hold LC, then move mouse back and right (v+>), then release.

Second:

To slash RtL: RC.
To slash LtR: LC.
To slash UtD: double RC.
To T: double LC.
To defend: CapsLock...
To slash UtD left on horse: hold LC, then move mouse back (v), then release.
To slash UtD right on horse: hold RC, then move mouse back (v), then release.
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Of course, that when you are holding a click and move mouse, the screen must not move, must stay as it was before you begin the atack.
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Note: RtL: Right to Left, LtR: Left ro Right: UtD: Up to Down, T: Thrust, LC: left click, RC: right click.
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Edit: I add the third "set":

Flaming Eyes said:
Well, other way, would be the next, althought should be some dificult to add and would change a lot the dinamic of the game:

Third:

1. Leaving the mouse to secondary use.
2. The keys should change some:

W: walk front.
S: walk back.
A: strife left.
D: strife right.
Spacebar: jump.
Nmpd1: turn left.
Nmpd3: turn right.
Nmpd2: crouch.
Nmpd0: look around*.
Nmpd.: turn back.
NmpdEnter: action button.
Nmpd5: defense.
Nmpd5 (double): shield bash/low blow.
Nmpd8: thrust/jab**.
Nmpd8 (double): slash RtD/Special Punch/horse bite (mounted).
Nmpd7: slash LtR/left hand punch.
Nmpd7 (double): slash LtR (left handed weapon)/Special Punch/horse kick (mounted).
Nmpd9: slash RtL/right hand punch.
Nmpd9 (double): slash RtL (left handed weapon)/Special Punch/horse kick (mounted).
Nmpd4: avoid to left/slash UtD left (mounted).
Nmpd4 (double): body aimed left hand punch/left kick (mounted).
Nmpd6: avoid to right/slash UtD right (mounted).
Nmpd6 (double): body aimed right hand punch/right kick (mounted).
Nmpd-: camera toggle.
Nmpd+: zoom toggle.
E: right hand item*** wielded/keep toggle.
E (double): next right hand item.
Q: left hand item*** wielded/keep toggle.
Q (double): next left hand item.
1-5: right hand item toggle.
6-0: left hand item toggle.
Left Shift: run/walk.
CapsLock: run/walk toggle.
F1-F10: party groups screen (or call) (battle orders).****
F11: all party groups screen (or call) (battle orders).
Tab: view outfit.
Esc: Menu, with retreat mission option (if available).
C: Character screen.
P: Party screen.
T: Screenshot.
R: Quest screen, with table of player success, and table with relation with other parties.
D: Personal binnacle.
X (6*): whistle your horse.

Mouse (5*):
Right click: zoom.
Left click: fire.

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*Note: Look around, when you hold this button, you can use the W,A,S,D keys to look around, release it and press it again quicly to leave the character looking in the direction you left it. Press it again to centre view. If you don't press it again after releasing it, the view is centered. To move while holding Look around, press W,A,S or D double (quicly).

**Note: When you press an atack button and hold it, the character will take a position to perform the atack you want, untill you release the button. After you perform an no weapon atack, the character will take a fighting position, for a while, I mean, will get "on ward". If you don't perform an atack in 5 seconds, will go to normal stand again.

***Note: Right hand item: weapons. Left hand item: Shield, or weapon.

****Note: When you call a party, to order them press 1-0, where numbers are:
1. Stay here.
2. Follow me.
3. Follow X (where X is another party)
4. Charge.
5. Mount.
6. Dismount.
7. Flee.
8. Take prisioners.
9. Don't kill the Leader (or the Nobleman).
0. Kill them all.

5*Note: Mouse is always in look around option, and it will used specially for bows, crossbows, throwing and firearms weapons..

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I know that this is very hard to be implemented, but, I think that can be usefull controls.
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6*Edit: I forgot to add the "whistle your horse" option.
Edit 2: Corrected an ortografic error.

Edit3: 24/10/2005I add another set (thank you Big J Money)
Big J Money said:
I don't like #2 at all. This is because it requires too much arbitrary memorization. Anything like that is not a good combat system, IMHO. It's one of the main reasons I don't like console games: because I always forget what the "triangle" buttons is supposed to do.

I thought idea #1 was great. Although, I disagree with some of the people who said that movement should lock once you press the attack button. That would mean we would no longer be able to prepare an attack before engaging. There's nothing realistic about that at all. When you charge an enemy, you draw your weapon back before you get to them, not after you're already there! I can't remember whose idea that was. However, if you continue reading, I did come up with a way to incorporate that concept, if desired.

So, here is my idea, but I doubt anyone will like it. I'm only mentioning it because it's kind of inventive, even though it would be very different learning, initially:

To initiate an attack, press and hold the LMB (left mouse button). Then, move your mouse in the direction the attack will be originating from. Then, press and hold also the RMB. Finally, move the mouse in the direction the attack will move to. Note that while pressing the LMB the view will be locked in one direction to make the attack motions easier. Further, note that while pressing the RMB the character's movement will also be halted while he swings his weapon. You can release either buttons prematurely to stop the attack early. This would be useful if, say, you decided to block in incoming blow.

One way to look at it is that the LMB is the "attack preparation" button, and the RMB becomes the "attack execution" button, once you have prepared. Of course, all this happens in split-second timing.

I know, it's weird. But, it's actually very simple, since it only involves the mouse buttons and very intuitive mouse movements. Defending could either be handled in the way it is now, or it could optionally be handled the same way as attacking is handled, but by reversing the buttons.

=$= Big J Money =$=
And, from Svart (thank you too):
svart said:
I don't like #2, because you could get confused between clicks (for people who press the buttons a lot, it would mean they accidently launch a different attack).

And i don't like #3 because a mounted melee fighter with throwing weapons (like my last char) would have to jump from numpad to mouse like there's no tommorow.

Nice comments Big J Money, maybe flaming should add this disadvantage to #1 : *unable to prepare an attack with set 1, since attacks launch immidiatly*
I would suggest a combination to the #1 : (best of both worlds)
- you Lclick, and the view locks.
- you move the mouse in the direction of the attack and the character already moves to the attack position.
- if you release the Lclick your character will continue and strike (like #1)
- if you click rmb you the view unlock but the attack stays charged.
- blocking midstrike (after you released the button/s) will interrupt the blow like it does now.

the attack/charge/block could be remapped of course. (i personally would put such a buttonto the middle one, and leave the right one as block).
The sixth set:
Flaming Eyes said:
I try another one, more simple... based on Narcisus key config (thank you Narcisus).

Sixth set:

E: forward.
S: strife left.
D: backward.
F: strife right.
RmB: defend.
LmB (hold): prepare weapon.
LmB+move mouse left (then release LmB): prepare slash LtR (this is maintain until 5 second or until you press LmB again, when that, do the atack).
LmB+move mouse right (then as before): prepare slash RtL.
LmB+move mouse back: prepare slash UtD.
LmB+move mouse forward: prepare to thrust.
LmB (quick): execute an atack (or random atack).
LmB+S: prepare slash UtD left (mounted)/avoid left (on foot).
LmB+F: prepare slash UtD right (mounted)/avoid to right (on foot).
RmB: defend.
RmB (double): shield bash.

When you hold LmB, the screen lock until you release it.
When weapon is keep, the atack will be unharmed.
The rest of controls are as the game is right now.
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What you think?
I want to say, too, that the systems I post, can, and should be changed, to make the gameplay easy too, if any can post more Ideas I will thank you.
 
I like this idea too, because I suggested it exactly the same a couple of weeks ago (the first, that is)
 
That's an pretty interesting suggestion, i'm not sure how it'll play out, but it sounds promising.
 
I would actually like to see a more radial-type attack system, a lot like the first set but more flexible. Umm, how do I explain this.


For instance, for a Left to Right attack, you'd still hold LC and move the mouse (>). However, if you move your mouse up or down, it will adjust the swing up or down, so moving the mouse all the way down would actually result in a diagonal attack.






Edit: There we go, diagram fixed.


So let's say the slash were positioned on the right side of the player, and if you moved the mouse down while holding the attack, the angle of the attack would move down those radial dashes (it could be in degrees instead of set notches), and if it were at the bottom right, then your attack would go from the bottom right to the top left, and vice versa.

For blocking, you would hold the RC, move the mouse to the left or right to block based on which direction the attack is coming from, and move the mouse up and down to position your block in a radial pattern. It could cover multiple degrees, so say you're weapon blocks a 30 degree area and is covering 20-50 degrees on the right side of your body, and the attack is coming at 45 degrees towards you from the right, you would block it. If it were 60 degrees from your right, it would hit you.

This would make both attacking and defending more comprehensive, and would also implement the original suggestion in this thread. It would also give more advantages and disadvantages blocking-wise to certain larger weapons that don't have much use otherwise.


Eh?

Eh?


What do you think, eh?
 
I think the idea of this thread wasn't adding more attacks, but rather changing the controls of the current ones.

But since your idea can't exist without mouse gestrues attack, and this is the current topic for it, i'd say it's a nice concept (even if not all the angle are used, but only 8.
although the blocking you suggest would be (seriously) cool for an rpg, or a duel game, i think it will make blocking so hard in the game (because of anticipation and the lag between clicking the mouse, moving it and blocking itself) that it will make blocking rather obselete.

Back to original topic, i think this combat scheme isn't neccesseraly a change in the current controls, but rather an alternative control set.
Though i think it's not something the devs even planned to make :/
 
I think what he actually means is that you are able to choose the direction of your swing, by pressing attack key and moving the mouse in the direction you want to swing at. (eg. pressing attack and moving mouse right, will swing your weapon right)

Personally I would prefer this method, while actually 'blocking' the attacks by 'slashing' your sword AGAINST the oncoming one, rather than just pressing the 'block' button. (and similar with other weapons) It is more or less a personal preference for players though. If there was a vote, I would vote 'yes', but if there isn't, that means the developer(s) already probably considered different aspects of combat, and / or it would probably be more complicated to make. As for the speed of blocking (parrying) attacks, NPC's don't have to swing THAT fast to make it easier ::smile: Its just a slightly different system, which looks and feels more complex, and is preferred by some people.
 
how bout

when you hold the LMB the PC stand in a aggressive stance
so that when you press a button, like W your character
performs a thrusting attack

so hold LMB + W = thrust
+ S = vertical slash
+ D/A = horizontal slash

and i hope armagan would add more animations when you
perform an attack and block, like stepping forward when
you perform a swing and moving sligthly backwards after
a succesfull block.

and with blocking you can press and hold the RMB to perform

RMB + W = push enemy or bash with shield
+ S = block or parry
+ D/A = side step or dodge maybe with light armor?

sorry if this has been posted before and for my english
 
I agree with Victor - in real battle one can't run and slash at the same time. To make a good strike you have to stay in position. When I'm outnumbered I just go back and strikestrikestrike. But in reality it is not so easy. Meanwhile the fight is more of arcade. I think the right examples of combat are in Blade of darkness, gothic, die by the sword. Just try that ones to see the how the fight was implemented.
 
would it be nice to change the targeting reticule
for range weapons, so that when the enemies distance
is beyond 100m or so you can only target a land
area where it would be random (dependent
on the wind and some other things) where you would
accurately hit?

the targeting reticule can be 40m in diameter on the
lowest level and faces the ground.

like

when PC draws his bow, it would be easier on 3rdperson,
a circle appears on your mouse which highlights a land area
which get smaller. (depends on the distance and as
you hold longer). then the PC aims up and fire.
and maybe it change back to the normal
FPS style reticule when your target is within 60m?

with this, the mouse pointer can be independent with the PC's
body position specially with the hands, so maybe now the PC can now
point their bows upward and avoid friendlys?
 
Flaming eyes idea seems very very similar, to the old Morrowind/Arena/Daggerfall system. Its main problem was you will find difficult to properly time your strike when you move, as your mouse will be used to both turn yourself around and to decide your swinging side.

This kind of system works when your movement system is entirely keyboard dependant.

A failry easy system is to link attack types to arrow keys, so left arrow: left swing, up arrow: forward thrust, down arrow: overhead slash and so on. Like X-Men Legends for example (this system could invalidate l/r mouse button functions as you need to just press arrow keys to attack).
 
Yeah like jedi knights haha. Its all a matter of who thinks what is best, and what people are used to. In daggerfall, I used mouselook as well, and worked ok for me. But honestly I would be excited if somebody thought of something new.. Would be nice to have a way.. any way.. to direct your swings..
 
Personally, I prefer the second set, because allow me to move and see while atacking. But as I read, there are very good ideas here.

Two things that I don't like of the second set are:

First:

I can't stand with an atack, as can be maded in present system.

Second:

To slash on horse RtL or LtR, must be changed.

The idea of Garth is cool, but I think should be dificult to devs to implement, because will modify the engine, a lot. But is cool. I have heard that Die by the sword (+RIP+) uses an original sistem, that you use the sword with the mouse. That should be excelent to this game, but as Daimyo said, mouse is used to see around too.

Oh, and an intresting add, with second set you can box and use two swords.... :twisted: ...

... just imagine...
 
how bout using the mouse for the PCs movement
WASD or Numpad for attacks and blocking?

I agree that this is an impressive game but its being
drag down by its very simple combat system.
sure its better than any game out there but M&B should be
waay better than this.

I hope armagan could find something simple for an 70year
old to learn but still immersive and quite realistic.
 
Daimyo said:
Flaming eyes idea seems very very similar, to the old Morrowind/Arena/Daggerfall system. Its main problem was you will find difficult to properly time your strike when you move, as your mouse will be used to both turn yourself around and to decide your swinging side.

But didn't he say that once you click the mouse button the view locks ?
Sorry i don't follow you ...
 
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