Combat: Archery

[gamerooner]

I'm not sure if this has been posted previously, but here goes.

In Mount and Blade Warband, archery was fine and dandy but I felt as if something was lacking in terms of variety. You could take down light infantry with ease while riding around on your horse with a short bow. Heavy damage against attackers/defenders when in siege battles using longbows/crossbows.

My question to those who could help me or developers, will Bannerlord contain any new features with archery? A lot of games and movies that have recently come out have shown Saracen Archery. (An Asian form of archery where riders or infantry would shoot off multiple arrows within a matter of seconds.)

I just thought this would be a feature worth adding into the would-be Khergit faction seeing they have an Asian influence. I've noticed more Western siege equipment being introduced and was wondering if those were the only new forms of ranged combat.

I do understand that having riders launching countless of arrows at your troops and yourself within a matter of seconds would be too hectic, but I'm sure there would be ways around such OP tactics; less damage, inaccuracy and/or big movement penalty.

What are your thoughts?

Direct me to the relevant page if this is the incorrect place to post it or if there was a similar post already.

 

[Esce III.]

I hope give the Khuzait Khanate some weaker/faster bows, so it may fit more with mongols or turks. If we can not use Long bows on horses anymore it should be fine, for me atleast.

I do understand that having riders launching countless of arrows at your troops and yourself within a matter of seconds would be too hectic, but I'm sure there would be ways around such OP tactics; less damage, inaccuracy and/or big movement penalty.

It might be hard to balance bows that shoot 100% faster. If you give them more dps vs unarmored, but lower damage per arrow. They might become useless against armored enemies.
Dark Souls 3 has special attacks for weapons and some bows and one crossbow got a fast shooting attack. These are beyond useless. The damage got nerfed,
inaccurate and you have to stand still. All in all Dark Souls never had viable bows, but it is an good example how not to do it.

In M&B it might be more viable, because you can not dodge or move as fast as in Dark Souls and do not have so much health, but on the other hand you can block without penelty, as long as your shield does not break.

One way to include this might be, that even if well armored warriors do not get damaged that much, they still walk slower or get staggered for a moment if an arrow hits them, so they can not ignore arrow fire.

 

[hruza]

A lot of games and movies that have recently come out have shown Saracen Archery. (An Asian form of archery where riders or infantry would shoot off multiple arrows within a matter of seconds.)

That's Holywood archery and no, it luckily wont be in Bannerlord. Along with dualwielding and other nonsense.

 

[Mad Vader]

A lot of games and movies that have recently come out have shown Asian jumping. (An Asian form of jumping where warriors jump incredibly long distances and heights to gain a tactical advantage.)

Weak Western warrior jumping that can't even clear a fence as in Mount and Blade simply won't do in the Asian markets and you need to address this.
If Taleworlds won't do it, the Chinese modders will before you can say wuxia.

Spoiler

Sorry OP, you did good and this mockery is completely unjustified.

 

[Dethikus]

A lot of games and movies that have recently come out have shown Asian jumping. (An Asian form of jumping where warriors jump incredibly long distances and heights to gain a tactical advantage.)

Weak Western warrior jumping that can't even clear a fence as in Mount and Blade simply won't do in the Asian markets and you need to address this.
If Taleworlds won't do it, the Chinese modders will before you can say wuxia.

Spoiler

Sorry OP, you did good and this mockery is completely unjustified.

Damn that was good actually lol'd, keep the smartassery up

 

[gamerooner]

A lot of games and movies that have recently come out have shown Saracen Archery. (An Asian form of archery where riders or infantry would shoot off multiple arrows within a matter of seconds.)

That's Holywood archery and no, it luckily wont be in Bannerlord. Along with dualwielding and other nonsense.

Don't understand the reason for such a harsh way to reply to an honest topic. This archery style has been used since Ghengis Khan so I don't understand why you mention Hollywood Archery when you clearly know nothing of it. I only bring it up because it's been featured recently on different types of massive media.

 

[hruza]

Don't understand the reason for such a harsh way to reply to an honest topic.

Honest answer to honest question.

This archery style has been used since Ghengis Khan so I don't understand why you mention Hollywood Archery when you clearly know nothing of it. I only bring it up because it's been featured recently on different types of massive media.

"different types of massive media" ...in other word Hollywood industry. Thanks for confirming what I said. "Different types of massive media" also recently featured plastic armor and black medieval European knights. Should have made you already bit suspicious about "massive media" as a reliable source for historical matters.

I recommend you to start learning about history from historical literature instead of mass media. Start with learning what draw weight were bows used by the Ghengis Khan's army and then try to imagine how fast and how quickly you can draw that. Not to mention question of how do you want to supply arrows to an force that shoots out it's entire ammo in matter of seconds and then becomes useless for the rest of the battle.

 

[Honved]

You CAN fire arrows fairly rapidly from a low-draw-weight bow with a short pull, but they won't penetrate much of anything, and the accuracy will be pitiful.  Good enough for Hollywood or a circus act, not something you'd want to actually use on a battlefield, ESPECIALLY against armored opponents.

One thing that TaleWorlds COULD do to satisfy both "fun" and "realism" would be to have different draw weight bows operate at different speeds.  Quite simply, it takes not only more strength, but a bit more time to draw back a stronger bow, particularly one with a longer draw distance.  That way, you could choose a bow that's at the upper end of your character's strength capability for maximum armor penetration, or a weaker bow for faster draw speed, and consequently a modest increase in your rate of fire against lighter troops.

 

[hruza]

One thing that TaleWorlds COULD do to satisfy both "fun" and "realism" would be to have different draw weight bows operate at different speeds.

That's already implemented in both MB and MBW.

 

[lolbash]

"Different types of massive media" also recently featured plastic armor and black medieval European knights. Should have made you already bit suspicious about "massive media" as a reliable source for historical matters.

Black people in medieval Europe is not fantasy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7v1lil/people_are_getting_extremely_upset_because_there/

https://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75048606179/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

 

[Sir Bob Knightley]

"Different types of massive media" also recently featured plastic armor and black medieval European knights. Should have made you already bit suspicious about "massive media" as a reliable source for historical matters.

Black people in medieval Europe is not fantasy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7v1lil/people_are_getting_extremely_upset_because_there/

https://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/75048606179/hi-ive-been-looking-at-a-kickstarter-for-a

Is it Sci-Fi?

 

[hruza]

Black people in medieval Europe is not fantasy.

I said knights.

 

[lolbash]

Black people in medieval Europe is not fantasy.

I said knights.

A black person became a samurai. The probability of a black knight is also likely, and complaining about realistic representation in a fantasy setting is stupid to begin with.

 

[hruza]

A black person became a samurai. The probability of a black knight is also likely

You are free to point me any know medieval era knight that was black.

and complaining about realistic representation in a fantasy setting is stupid to begin with.

Not in a historical reality inspired fantasy.

 

[Roccoflipside]

Not sure about any specifically black Knights (although I'd bet on the side there was at least one rather than betting there never were any), but I would encourage you to do some research into historical archery. Never heard the term "Saracen archery", but there were definitely forms of archery practiced in the East which allowed for much faster firing, with decent accuracy, based on holding the arrows in the drawing hand, allowing to fire 3-4 in quick succession.

Manuscripts tell of archers being expected to be able to use this technique, meaning it must have been of some use, although it probably was mostly for show.

 

[hruza]

Never heard the term "Saracen archery", but there were definitely forms of archery practiced in the East which allowed for much faster firing, with decent accuracy, based on holding the arrows in the drawing hand, allowing to fire 3-4 in quick succession.

Manuscripts tell of archers being expected to be able to use this technique, meaning it must have been of some use, although it probably was mostly for show.

There might be ways you can fire faster, like having few arrows ready in hand, but I ensure you that there are none which let you "shoot off multiple arrows within a matter of seconds". Not with anything close to an actual war bow. When shooting bow the hard limit you will always run to is how fast you can draw your bow and how many times you can repeat that until you get exhausted. And bows used for war were VERY strong ones. You are talking about draw weights of 80–180 pounds. For comparison modern Olympic game athletes compete with bows of around 40-50. And modern competition bows have something called "compound let-off", meaning at full draw, draw weight is reduced by about half. And you can't shoot multiple arrows in matter of seconds from 40 pound bow either. Most of us would probably not be able to shoot from a bow with more then 90 pounds draw weight AT ALL.

Shooting and actual bow requires considerable physical effort, and shooting bows that were historically used for war requires actual training. And I don't mean accuracy training, I mean building your muscles for drawing it. Skeletons of English archers found on the shipwreck of Marry Rose were found to have bone deformations typical for modern professional athletes. That's how much strength it takes.

Bows that are used in Hollywood films and "shoot off multiple arrows within a matter of seconds" videos you can find on the Youtube probably don't draw more then 10. And I might be generous. You may be able to disable somebody with such a bow if you hit him in to the eye. With the bow I mean, not the arrow.

 

[Roccoflipside]

Iirc, manuscripts claim that accomplished archers could fire an arrow about once every five seconds or so. Of course, that would be under ideal conditions, and why you would need o put so many arrows at the same target so quickly in a battlefield I'm not sure, but it seems that it was something that happened.

I have shot several types of bows, various compounds, recurves, "longbows" (modern reproductions), so I know a bit about it. Enough to know I wouldn't e able to get more that probably two to three arrows on target in a minute, but I also haven't been practicing with a bow every day since I was seven (as law required the archers found on the Mary Rose to do).

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Iirc, manuscripts claim that accomplished archers could fire an arrow about once every five seconds or so. Of course, that would be under ideal conditions, and why you would need o put so many arrows at the same target so quickly in a battlefield I'm not sure, but it seems that it was something that happened.

Archers were expected to fire quickly because they might be trying to slow down an advancing formation or exploit a window of opportunity. During many battles, including most of the 100 years war battles, archers would use up all of their arrows and then join the melee. Large volume of fire was probably a lot more effective as it gives enemy formations nowhere to take cover.

 

[hruza]

Iirc, manuscripts claim that accomplished archers could fire an arrow about once every five seconds or so.

You can definetly shot arrow once every 5 seconds in MB.

 

[Roccoflipside]

Well then there you go. I don't really play archer much, just arguing the historicity of the point.