Co-op Campaign conspiracy

[Rungsted93]

So let me start off with this is a post about why I think co-op campaign will be in Bannerlord! I might have gone a bit overboard in terms of "evidence" but I do think a pattern is showing.

• At first let me start off with what we've seen from Gamescon footage: The cities/towns can now be accessed in a menu instead of having to go into the scene. Think about this for a moment, why would they actually make that?
• While we can all agree that Bannerlord is in every way so far an upgrade from Warband, why did they actually run into limitations with their old engine? We haven't seen any mechanics so far that differs so much from Warband that it seems imposible with the engine used in the earliest footage of Bannerlord. Only major limitation I can think of would have to be in terms of networking
• 7 Years of development doesn't seem that weird if they had to make everything networked and properly synced etc. It would explain a whole lot of things actually
• In the recent Gamescon interview we got the reply "it's difficult to say the percentage but we had a great period for getting ready for gamescom and we 've finished a lot of the early game stuff, so we need to do the same for the mid game, and late game, and multiplayer". But we've already seen captain mode, and multiplayer was some of the earliest footage we got. So by multiplayer could he actually mean co-op?
• At the same time it seems they developed multiplayer before the campaign, which would make a whole lot of sense if the goal was to have the campaign be multiplayer.
• When Captain Lust was still a community manager back then and ran his Ask.fm he was asked if there were any major features that was kept secret, to which he replied "yes". So far while we've seen a lot of nice things like clans, families etc. They haven't really been kept secret and at the same time it can be argued that they don't count as "major" features. Add to that at the early development he posted artwork of 2 warriors saying it was hinting something
• From different comments we know Armagan wants Bannerlord to be "perfect", he knows that co-op is the most requested feature so him insisting to add it seems likely

So after these points how will the campaign then work you might ask, as to which I think some other previously learned information tells us.

• We learned a little while ago that when battles start they now include the AI lords within a certain range, and we don't have to wait for them to all join first. This would counter endless battles since AI lords not in the given range when the battle starts won't be able to join it.
• The time problem: This is the most discussed thing about co-op campaign but everything real-time with these new features like no endless battles and the ability to handle almost everything in the town menu is very viable. Should you even enter a scene worst case scenario you get a message your fief is under siege, you press tab and leave it in 10 seconds.
• It's co-op and not mmo, hence supposed to be played with friends you can work together with. So should you for some reason be in a lengthy battle while your fief is under attack your friend(s) can go defend it, or you can remember to next time leave a larger garrison.

At last I want to state that overall if you think about them having co-op campaign all of the things in terms of development do make more sense. It seems that they mostly the last year or two really stepped up working on the game, which suggest they needed to figure out "something" before working more on the campaign. Anything besides co-op campaign wouldn't make sense in this context since they already knew how to do 80% of the stuff from Warband, and clans and families wouldn't slow down development of the rest of the campaign since it wouldn't be networked were it singleplayer. Also weirdly enough the engine limitations / reworks they had to do works really well with them designing how the players interact with town scenes, since from earlier footage it didn't seem to be the case.

I have the feeling they're keeping this up their sleeve and releasing it to create hype levels never seen before close to release.

EDIT: Seems now they've announced that they will add Co-op in a patch after the release so I was right!

 

[vicwiz007]

Ok I know coop has been discussed many times but if there's one thing I love, it's a good speculatory discussion so get ready for a big post!

• While we can all agree that Bannerlord is in every way so far an upgrade from Warband, why did they actually run into limitations with their old engine? We haven't seen any mechanics so far that differs so much from Warband that it seems imposible with the engine used in the earliest footage of Bannerlord. Only major limitation I can think of would have to be in terms of networking

I would first like to know, when you say new engine are you referring to Bannerlord's engine compared to Warband or the newer Bannerlord engine from when they restarted a few years ago? Because I know they redid the map after that PC Gamer video to what we see currently, but I don't think they redid the engine since then.

• 7 Years of development doesn't seem that weird if they had to make everything networked and properly synced etc. It would explain a whole lot of things actually

I think it's more likely they just ran into a lot of issues since theyre a new company and making a big game. Plus as I said, theyve redone the engine early on and redid the map "recently".

• In the recent Gamescon interview we got the reply "it's difficult to say the percentage but we had a great period for getting ready for gamescom and we 've finished a lot of the early game stuff, so we need to do the same for the mid game, and late game, and multiplayer". But we've already seen captain mode, and multiplayer was some of the earliest footage we got. So by multiplayer could he actually mean co-op?

They could have just made captain mode multiplayer battles just so they had something to show at that Gamescom and then put multiplayer on hold. What he probably means by multiplayer is making the rest of the modes, matchmaking, ranking, etc. Could be wrong about this but I don't think they would've done all that multiplayer stuff so early.

• When Captain Lust was still a community manager back then and ran his Ask.fm he was asked if there were any major features that was kept secret, to which he replied "yes". So far while we've seen a lot of nice things like clans, families etc. They haven't really been kept secret and at the same time it can be argued that they don't count as "major" features. Add to that at the early development he posted artwork of 2 warriors saying it was hinting something

I would like to see this source but this is interesting. Whenever coop was brought up around Lust he'd be like "what we can tell you is its very requested and we will do our best" sounding like he was pushing for it to happen, while Armagan would just say "we're gonna see if it's feasible". So I'll give you this one, he sure did some things to make it sound like it's happening.

• We learned a little while ago that when battles start they now include the AI lords within a certain range, and we don't have to wait for them to all join first. This would counter endless battles since AI lords not in the given range when the battle starts won't be able to join it.

I thought in Warband enemy/friendly parties could join your fight if theyre following you and/or close by. Is this not the same case as Bannerlord? The player can still see the battle progressing while they move in to join just as in Warband as well although the battles seems to progress more slowly.

• The time problem: This is the most discussed thing about co-op campaign but everything real-time with these new features like no endless battles and the ability to handle almost everything in the town menu is very viable. Should you even enter a scene worst case scenario you get a message your fief is under siege, you press tab and leave it in 10 seconds.

Even though you access the menu for towns on the campaign map, time still stops. And there are many things like talking to notables, trading, etc where youre in a full menu/scene and time stops. I guess they could make it so that time progresses no matter if youre in a menu, scene, battle, whatever but idk enough about programming to say.

• It's co-op and not mmo, hence supposed to be played with friends you can work together with. So should you for some reason be in a lengthy battle while your fief is under attack your friend(s) can go defend it, or you can remember to next time leave a larger garrison.

This is one argument I made for coop way back, is that whenever Armagan would say how it needs to be perfect unlike mods which can be janky, I just dont understand that. It's coop, not competitive multiplayer, so playing with your friends you are going to be lenient with many things, like if you have to wait a minute for your friend to use a menu, no big deal!

I think if it isn't revealed very soon, like maybe even in tomorrow's blog if that's the "something nice" Callum was referring (which I think he was just referring to the campaign demo we already got), then it won't happen. Good speculation nonentheless. And get the source to that thing about Lust if you can!

 

[Rungsted93]

I'm just going to divide your quotes and my answers into numbers to keep it more simple 

1. I was referring to the changes / reworks they did 2-3 years ago, there's been a lot of rumours about that + they've confirmed themselves that they did scrap their old engine and make the new one for Bannerlord after it was announced.

2. But still in 7 years a decent programmer should have been able to do all of Bannerlord's campaign code himself if it was singleplayer, and that's even without the experience from Warband.

3. Look at the very end of this video which was their first: https://youtu.be/obO5sbziqjM It clearly shows they already had multiplayer back then, when it was released we hadn't seen anything from the campaign yet.

4. His Ask.fm is sadly closed so I can't find it :/ But you're right it seems like he was a big supporter of it being there. Still wonder what actually happened since he's not with taleworlds anymore.

5. But sometimes stuff like 2 battles next to each other would happen, some lord wouldn't join etc. But anyway I think the way with AI lords only within a given range when a battle starts either at deployments or reinforcements would be the way to go.

6. Yes I think real-time would be the way to go, they could optionally make it stop if all players are in scenes/ battles. But it wouldn't really be necesarry.

7. I couldn't agree more, I think basically everyone that wants co-op would be more than satisfied with everything being real-time and rather have this than nothing even though it wouldn't be like singleplayer. It's not like anyone would be forced to play it, and the people that prefer the pauses can still play singleplayer.

It might just be wishfull thinking from my side, but I do really think it will be there! However I don't think it will be announced tomorrow

 

[vicwiz007]

1. Yeah so there's really no way of knowing why they did that but I think if they did it specifically for coop then Armagan wouldnt have been giving those types of answers he did about coop since that was after the engine remake.

2. It's not just code though because as many people say, the art stuff like creating scenes takes up a tremendous amount of time. I don't think a programmer could make a game of this scale in 7 years regardless of art anyway, but again I'm no developer.

3. I get why you would think it's a sign seeing mp so early but I just don't think that can be attributed to them wanting to use it for campaign. I can't think of any real way to debate this, as I have no idea how games go about developing when they have multiplayer and singleplayer aspects. I would think that it's two different departments that work on them simultaneously but idk.

4. What a shame I just think he didn't get along with his coworkers just judging by his body language and attitude when he presented with Sten and Armagan. Just a wild guess.

5. I think that would be good too. It's funny though because AI can join late battles the same way the player can, so long as said battle isnt one the player is in right? I guess its not an unfair advantage for the player since he/she might gain allies or enemies mid battle should they let AI do that.

7. Yes exactly, if you don't like how it's different from singleplayer and maybe a bit janky don't play it. Devs are probably too prideful to release something that isn't perfect (especially at this point), even if the fans say theyd be fine with it.

I've had a gut feeling it would be in since what Frank said years ago that I mentioned earlier. Then again I had a gut feeling we'd have at least a beta in 2018. This is why I ignore my gut XD

 

[bladeex]

Then again I had a gut feeling we'd have at least a beta in 2018. This is why I ignore my gut XD

Its still 2018 so we have hope

 

[vicwiz007]

Stop getting my hopes up! Anyway, ill never pass school if it releases soon. Even worse if it releases with coop! But it would be worth the failure.

 

[FirstHero18]

Will Co-op not be introduced?

 

[KhergitLancer80]

I wouldnt want to strengthen conspiracy theories as I often find them distracting and especially this one seems to be very dangerous as it can lead people to a huge disappointment but I have to share this:

+Duh

It seems like this blog confirmed two of my suggestions about the Co-op campaign right Duh ?

1- We will be able to handle our business with NPC's inside towns via city panel.

Spoiler

+Duh

- You can't do any quests that require visiting scenes if not in the same party/location. 

No, you can. I say talking to guild master option must be available in city panel when playing coop. Or talking to a village elder option must be available in village panel.


You just wont be able to take a walk. But with these extended panels that enables you to talk to people directly, you wont have to.

2-By not making city screen full screen, this will make players visiting towns and looking at city panel able to track the campaign map.

Spoiler

Both of these discuss issues of being in a menu while time passes. That can easily be extended to other menus that have an effect on the game like a diplomacy panel or trading a city from one lord while another lord conquers it, etc. 

wait... what about continuing to show the real world map on top right ? Or in the bottom right ? Or draggable to any place you want ?

I dont want to hype any of you for no good reason people but TW suspiciously took a lot of decisions that will help them in the future to implement a coop campaign. I mean these were my suggestions not that they have read my suggestions I wrote them about just 2 weeks ago and in fact the first suggestion seem to be implemented way before because we can see npc portraits in veeeery earlier screenshots as well. Butstill great minds think alike So I by luck may have come to the same solution thinking over the problems.


EDIT:
OMG ! They even implemented a backstreet visiting option to the city panel !
People, the possibiltyof TW thinking of a coop really increases.

Though I still believe coop and naval combat(this one is confirmed actually) will come as a dlc.

 

[vicwiz007]

Haha well there we have it. In this interview at 1:37:30 Armagan says no coop at release but its possible such as naval battles to be added after release.

 

[Rungsted93]

Haha well there we have it. In this interview at 1:37:30 Armagan says no coop at release but its possible such as naval battles to be added after release.

Well I think that still counts as me being right, they did make these changes in terms of being able to implement it in the future

 

[Duh]

No. They do not state that you are right or that they made the changes for coop.

 

[Rungsted93]

No. They do not state that you are right or that they made the changes for coop.

Well if co-op comes in a later patch it means they've planned it since the start, they needed to have the groundwork done  in terms of having stuff networked. So while not all my points might be true, they do heavily reinforce the idea that Bannerlord from the start has been designed with co-op in mind. But anyway it doesn't really matter at this point i'm just extremely happy that it's coming!

 

[Orion]

That's nice of you to assume TaleWorlds has a clear development roadmap, though I feel there's more evidence to the contrary.

 

[Rungsted93]

That's nice of you to assume TaleWorlds has a clear development roadmap, though I feel there's more evidence to the contrary.

Haha well you have a point, but then again this would explain why in the middle of development they would need engine changes 
I believe they all the time wanted co-op campaign, but didn't exactly know how to do it nor if their old engine supported it.

 

[Duh]

Nothing of what I saw or heard at GC suggests that coop was a guiding principle/fundamental factor in their design process.

They have also not specified what kinda coop they may be considering to add afaik. Might just be Battletime.

 

[Rungsted93]

Nothing of what I saw or heard at GC suggests that coop was a guiding principle/fundamental factor in their design process.

They have also not specified what kinda coop they may be considering to add afaik. Might just be Battletime.

1. So running into engine problems several times and focusing so much on it isn't an indicator that they needed some drastic changes? With all due respect to the Clan and Family features, everything besides this seems like Warband but just improved. Nothing of these would warrant these engine chances since in the 2015 siege video everything seemed more than fine.
2. Developing multiplayer first before the campaign indicates that they needed to have this done before it was posible to make the campaign due to networking.
3. The long development time, lets be honest it would be extremely weird to spend 7 years on something that's what they already had from Warband but improved with a few new features. Now if all this had to support networking it all makes a whole lot more sense.
4. Frank's early teases, I think it was one of the very first blogs where there was artwork of 2 warriors standing besides each other heavily hinting it meant something. It kinda screams co-op and back at their first gamescon when asked of course they had to play it safe and say they would only add it if it worked well and was fun. It even gave the impression they had already been trying to do it at that point.
5. The new town menu kinda seals the deal for me, it would make a whole lot sense making everything much more accessable if there's co-op campaign.
6. The have it in the hand by the end of 2016 comment. It's 100% obvious something happened that post-poned the game a lot. This is if that was purely singleplayer there's no way such a problem would take 3 years to fix. It's not like by mid 2016 they found out that the game had to support more than 100 NPC's etc. Keep in mind at that time we had already seen the siege video. I challenge you to name 1 thing besides co-op that would break their game to warrant a 3+ year delay as has been the case.

 

[Duh]

I talked to them about a variety of the delay theories like the "extortion virus" and the answer was pretty much universally "lolno". (Though, I will say we didn't specifically discuss coop in that regard and what I noted on here is, obviously, my interpretation of things rather than any sort of official stance - plus things are subject to change, etc.)

My take on it is that the problem wasn't any one big particular issue. The game was simply announced too early. It's a big, amazing engine and a big, amazing game. Both of those take time. They are also a young studio - in the sense of their expansion from 2(-10) to 80 people. This too will not have come without some teething pains.

 

[vicwiz007]

This guy knows things we don't. Time to pester lads.

 

[Duh]

I'm uploading my material (~50minutes) now. Unfortunately, a few folks had similar ideas to mine (record perks, record encyclopedia), but there may still be some details covered that weren't seen elsewhere (I don't know). I also tried to take some questions from the to-do list with me, though, I will first sit down with Callum and figure out what can and can't be shared. Don't expect that to happen prior to next week, though. It's a holiday in turkey, after all.

 

[vicwiz007]

Ah very good. Just be sure to spread the link like wildfire when it's uploaded. No worries on the time, I think we're gonna want things to be spread out a bit more now because there will probably be a decent wait until the next major news.