Classes feedback on the forums : Skirmish and Captain mode should be 2 separate sections...

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Yukmouth++

Sergeant
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TLDR=Yellow text

The feedback and suggestions section of the forum is just so ambiguous, players arent agreeing on anything, while usually, in this section for example, it seems most of us agree on almost everything. The fact that we get to give feedbacks about classes BOTH based on their performances in Captain and in Skirmish makes it completely irrelevant, and in no way can be helpful for the devs. Classes that perform very well in a mode can be complete trash in another, and yet we give feedback about that class, which leads to polarized opinions, it makes it hard to help the devs balance the classes when, for example, Voulgier is a great class in Captain mode but a complete useless tool in Skirmish mode.

Feedback section should, first of all, be separated into Game modes sections, and within these Game mode sections we can start talking specifics, such as the classes. If we get to talk about a class ONLY in Skirmish or ONLY in Captain, i believe we will more easily discuss them. Its clearly proven that TW just cannot balance the classes the same way for Skirmish AND for Captain, it makes absolutely no sense because of MANY facts, i'll just list a few to make my point :

Lets use the Voulgier as the main example (could be any of the 2h classes to be honest) :
-In Captain Mode the AI do not have good aim like a player in Skirmish.
-In Captain Mode the AI shoots the closest units, while i skirmish the ennemy archer will shoot you for 40 in the foot from across the map over a teamfight in the middle of it.
-In Captain Mode the AI seems to be mastering the art of KICKING CAV'S ASSES, holy hell do they not miss you or your horse without even using a spear. Sometimes i feel like the 2h hitbox is higher for AI. My spear is nowhere near them and they demolish my horse under me X). In skirmish mode cavs hit the voulgier in the back, while in Captain the AI Cav try their luck face to face against units that they should definitively not come roam nearby.


TLDR: Players have more accuracy than AI, therefore Archers destroy certain classes (non-shield users) way more in Skirmish than in Captain.

I use Voulgier because i feel it is a prime example of a class that perform WAY differently in Skirmish and Captain, along with pretty much all the other 2h classes.

Peasant classes are performing much better in Captain mode too.
 
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Ling*

Sergeant at Arms
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+1 I really hope they decide to separate the classes between the two modes, I'm not sure how adamant they are about keeping the classes exactly the same across all 3 game-modes but I hope they listen to our feedback and take this into consideration. Otherwise we get situations where a balance change meant to only effect skirmish players is also effecting captain mode players, and vice versa.
 

Lagstro

Baron
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You can add this to the list of things that was pointed out multiple times during alpha/beta which went ignored. :rolleyes: Similar issues came up between skirmish and the other modes like TDM and Siege, and will probably happen again when TW finally decides to add a 1 life battle mode. It all stems from the problems with the class system, but the difference is definitely more pronounced with Captain mode, because there's AI involved.
 

Ling*

Sergeant at Arms
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I'm hoping that now that they have a larger quantity of match-data, they will be more receptive to feedback on this matter, as they will now undeniably have seen that even a minor change to a class for balance purposes in one mode has HUGE ramifications in the other modes. In the end if they decide to listen to our advice and make the classes unique to each respective game mode, they will save themselves time, energy, and the headache of having to figure out a way to balance 1 set of classes across two completely different modes. In the end separating the classes between game modes is extremely beneficial for the team responsible for MP balance, as they could tailor each set of classes specifically to fit into the respective game mode allowing for less design constraints and more creative freedom.
 

Lagstro

Baron
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All points that were brought up half a year ago, but feel free to carry the torch and fight the good fight for all those who got tired of asking. Maybe some day TW will see the light.
 

Yukmouth++

Sergeant
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All points that were brought up half a year ago, but feel free to carry the torch and fight the good fight for all those who got tired of asking. Maybe some day TW will see the light.
Its time to do so my brother, for they listen to us now. Many of my threads led to TW answering and providing information about upcoming patch, a patch that seems to be dealing with alot of these issues.
 

.Brandis

Subforum Moderator
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Does anyone, anywhere, disagree that captain and skirmish should be separate?
 

Yukmouth++

Sergeant
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Does anyone, anywhere, disagree that captain and skirmish should be separate?
Probably Tork. We should ask him :grin: But from what i understand, if we want to be listened by TW, we need to provide as much arguments and facts we can lol and shove it down their throats.
 

Grendelfromdc

Recruit
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This is a major problem with balance. Split the two modes obviously! Different modes, different balance! This is basic stuff I think...
 
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This seems like such a no-brainer. I cannot think of a single reason why they wouldnt do this. Did they ever provide a reason?
 

Ling*

Sergeant at Arms
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This seems like such a no-brainer. I cannot think of a single reason why they wouldnt do this. Did they ever provide a reason?
It was probably originally intended to keep things simple, ironically. They might have thought by making simple adjustments to troop quantity in captains mode and keeping the more equipment oriented balance changes based on skirmish mode that they would be able to keep a healthy balance between both modes. Unfortunately the reality of this isn't quite as simple or easy as perhaps the devs might have originally anticipated.
 
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TheBard

Salt Knight
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It was probably originally intended to keep things simple, ironically. They might have thought by making simple adjustments to troop quantity in captains mode and keeping the more equipment oriented balance changes based on skirmish mode that they would be able to keep a healthy balance between both modes. Unfortunately the reality of this isn't quite as simple or easy as perhaps the devs might have originally anticipated.
And that's okay if it happens, really. Mistakes, miscalculations, misconception and having a nice theory not working in practice is all okay. It's human and it happens, especially in game development because players will minmax everything and benchmark immediately after buying the product, something completely different if you buy software for different purpose, you will not go and immediately benchmark ALL mechanics at once... One can just hope the right conclusions will be made from this.
 

rektasaurus

Squire
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There are separate gamefiles managing the skills of the ai troops and the heroes so I think that in addition to the troop quantities are the tools the devs would have used to balance the two modes while using identical classes. I think they just haven’t gotten to it yet.

I may accidentally be relieving Tork of his duties because I do disagree that classes should be different between captain and skirmish and believe balance can be achieved while keeping them the same. But that’s just a guess.

I think the forums may benefit from dedicated captain and skirmish sections so that it’s clear what is being discussed when it’s applicable so I do agree in that regard. Humans definitely use the equipment in a much different way than the ai so achieving balance while keeping the same classes between the two is a non-trivial matter.

For example, my favorite cheese in captain mode is parking my squadron of cav somewhere and all of a sudden I have 6-9 lives to take out archers and shock troops. Punching a hole in the opponent by myself with knockdown lets friendly ai destroy enemy infantry. This is a situation where decreasing the knockdown time, something that would greatly improve skirmish, still may not have as big an impact to nerf my cheese in captain.
 
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Sundeki

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
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I wonder how many different player "waves" coming to the same conclusion, over and over, will make any difference? Probably won't in the end.

For reference: the entire class system for all of the other modes is shackled to Captain's Mode. When we pointed out the very same thing you're saying here, 10+ months ago; we were completely ignored and since then there's been no meaningful change. It's one of the fundamental flaws with the class system, and to make it worse, one of the excuses for them creating this class system and applying it to both Captain's Mode and the other modes, was that newer players could swap from Captain's Mode to other modes and immediately know what is going on.

So good luck separating the two, in any remotely necessary way, while TaleWorlds decision makers are locked in their ivory tower.
 

FearSpear

Sergeant
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For reference: the entire class system for all of the other modes is shackled to Captain's Mode.
I actually think it would be cool to have equipment selection for captains mode as well. Wouldn't it be more fun to have roving hordes of nude greatsword swingers!
 

Piconi

Fashionista
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Ok, i just want to remind everyone that different perks for different game modes are quite a possibility, or were at least being considered as such some time ago.

Now, as we know since then that different class perks for different game modes were being considered, and the premade classes are "here to stay", I'll just throw this out there:
IF different perks for different game modes come to life, it could even be a reason to RENAME the classes completely for the game modes they have perk difference (even if the classes' visuals remain the same), borrow some names of the other similar classes from the Singleplayer, so there won't be confusion when talking about class balance between different game modes.

This sounds very radical, i know, but not as radical as trying to balance game modes with 12 players with 1-2 respawns, 120 infinitely respawning players, 12 players with 250+ bots, and possibly in the future 200 players 1 life, all using the EXACT SAME sets of perks.
 

rektasaurus

Squire
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I actually think it would be cool to have equipment selection for captains mode as well. Wouldn't it be more fun to have roving hordes of nude greatsword swingers!
I know this bugs a lot of people and breaks immersion but I love this. It reminds me of the first hardcore naked Diablo 2 runs. Didn’t think it was possible when I first read the story. So amazing haha