character models and animations critiques

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johncage213

Recruit
also, i'm not sure if i should create a new thread, but i'll post it here for now, why taleworlds should edit the various coifs and aventails models to cover down to the shoulders.

the neck is completely exposed here. this is why the historical equivalent of the coifs depicted in this game always draped over and in some cases down below the shoulders
fy2hAmz.jpg


what they should actually look like:
chain-mail-coif~638543.jpg

r0GNxEmAvUBYml11v8Q9tqhh9S2dlxppX0PrGeW-tw4vlsSMg9EemXYsmhz0-fa0Otcte2jcuO-0i47jamI_40yZVkMBwtt_-FKVlEGr7jmduxWbUtnR

b-cfv.jpg

9ccd19c72107bffbf2b04315d6893b7f.jpg


another thing about them, and helmets as well, is that they should fit rather snugly to the head, that is, it shouln't leave 1 or 2 inches on either side, at most a couple of centimeters of wiggle room. right now there are several mail coids and padded hoods that probably could do with a little scaling down.

i'm not sure if eventually talewords decides they want to make these physical items like the barding and the surcoats, but if the clipping issue is too much i'd rather they just mkae these hoods normal models, not ragdolls.
 

duchuy613

Veteran
no ****, it's a morph from the first pic, obviously it's not going to be perfect. but look at the heel placement in the picture you provided. that's shoulder width apart.not wider than shoulder width. no one stands like that while relaxed
First, it's not even shoulder-wide. (the white lines are drawn from the seams that connect the sleeves to the shirt body)
Second, he's leaning on the left leg.
That's how a normal person would stand. Keep in mind of thick armor and padding a soldier would wear, so it's perfectly normal to have a wider stance, unless you have a small penis, you're not gonna close your legs with all those protective gears.
g2aVQ4Y.png

Also, again, your perfectly balanced stance is completely unnatural. When I look at the stance you suggested, I don't think of a relaxed battle-hardened soldier, I think of a very insecure high school boy.
 
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Grimnarsson

Knight at Arms
WBVC
Exposed necks are definitely immersion breaking for me, were in Warband and are in Bannerlord. Thankfully you can work around that a bit with various combinations of coifs, hoods, hair and beard but some helmets are just unusable for me. I know it's a minor issue and it bothers be way more than it should :razz:
 

light6486

Recruit
Current standing animations are fine, maybe a tiny bit too wide, but still better than your suggestion.
 
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DeBlue

Recruit
also, i'm not sure if i should create a new thread, but i'll post it here for now, why taleworlds should edit the various coifs and aventails models to cover down to the shoulders.

the neck is completely exposed here. this is why the historical equivalent of the coifs depicted in this game always draped over and in some cases down below the shoulders
fy2hAmz.jpg


what they should actually look like:
chain-mail-coif~638543.jpg

r0GNxEmAvUBYml11v8Q9tqhh9S2dlxppX0PrGeW-tw4vlsSMg9EemXYsmhz0-fa0Otcte2jcuO-0i47jamI_40yZVkMBwtt_-FKVlEGr7jmduxWbUtnR

b-cfv.jpg

9ccd19c72107bffbf2b04315d6893b7f.jpg


another thing about them, and helmets as well, is that they should fit rather snugly to the head, that is, it shouln't leave 1 or 2 inches on either side, at most a couple of centimeters of wiggle room. right now there are several mail coids and padded hoods that probably could do with a little scaling down.

i'm not sure if eventually talewords decides they want to make these physical items like the barding and the surcoats, but if the clipping issue is too much i'd rather they just mkae these hoods normal models, not ragdolls.
I compleatly agree with you on this one though, should make a new thread about this. The coifs are stupid in this game, warband was horrendous with this probaly worse.
 

johncage213

Recruit
also the couched lance animations are just ported over from mount and blade:

27a1beb3f048.jpg


the posture is too upright and relaxed, it looks like a late medieval tournament posture where the heavy armor would impede your ability to get lower. but with 13the century arms and armor, the posture should be lower, more forward for stability and more aerodynamic, and the shield should be held close to the body to have greater absorption should the enemy arms make contact.
 

johncage213

Recruit
First, it's not even shoulder-wide. (the white lines are drawn from the seams that connect the sleeves to the shirt body)
Second, he's leaning on the left leg.
That's how a normal person would stand. Keep in mind of thick armor and padding a soldier would wear, so it's perfectly normal to have a wider stance, unless you have a small penis, you're not gonna close your legs with all those protective gears.
g2aVQ4Y.png

Also, again, your perfectly balanced stance is completely unnatural. When I look at the stance you suggested, I don't think of a relaxed battle-hardened soldier, I think of a very insecure high school boy.

ah the mental gymnastics people will go through to avoid admitting the animation is weird. first of all, gambeson is thick, but it's worn outside not inside his leggings, why would it affect how he stands? his pants are just normal cloth. also, you're arguing against yourself. you said armor is thick, yet you draw his shoulders near the outside of the armor? anatomically, that's not where his shoulders would end, also the lines don't even connect to his feet, it barely touches the inside of his heel.

again, it's just a morph to illustrate the point, it's not supposed to perfectly illustrate what the new animation should look like.

this is what normal human proportions look like, no big exaggerated stances. and if you're going to go on and on about penises and school boys, my argument to that would be that a career soldier/lord/captain whatever should be secure about their manhood such that they would just have a normal relaxed stance. this character is also resting on his left leg, but draw those lines here and you'll see the difference.

v461pswpkxf01.png


i'm not trying to be a ****, i'm simply trying to say the animaitons could use a little more nuance instead of everything being big and exaggerated

that feel when you're just a normal human being standing around, and not a fantasy comic book superhero doing the tory powerstance irl:

Crossguard-Kingdom-Come-Deliverance.jpg


also, here's a picture from an old warband mod called hispania 1200, they modified some of the animations and you'll notice again, standing on left leg,right foot out, yet again the stance is not wide, it's just normal:

bj9xu0.jpg
 
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duchuy613

Veteran
ah the mental gymnastics people will go through to avoid admitting the animation is weird. first of all, gambeson is thick, but it's worn outside not inside his leggings, why would it affect how he stands? his pants are just normal cloth. also, you're arguing against yourself. you said armor is thick, yet you draw his shoulders near the outside of the armor? anatomically, that's not where his shoulders would end, also the lines don't even connect to his feet, it barely touches the inside of his heel.

again, it's just a morph to illustrate the point, it's not supposed to perfectly illustrate what the new animation should look like.

this is what normal human proportions look like, no big exaggerated stances. and if you're going to go on and on about penises and school boys, my argument to that would be that a career soldier/lord/captain whatever should be secure about their manhood such that they would just have a normal relaxed stance. this character is also resting on his left leg, but draw those lines here and you'll see the difference.

v461pswpkxf01.png


i'm not trying to be a ****, i'm simply trying to say the animaitons could use a little more nuance instead of everything being big and exaggerated

that feel when you're just a normal human being standing around, and not a fantasy comic book superhero doing the tory powerstance irl:

Crossguard-Kingdom-Come-Deliverance.jpg


also, here's a picture from an old warband mod called hispania 1200, they modified some of the animations and you'll notice again, standing on left leg,right foot out, yet again the stance is not wide, it's just normal:

bj9xu0.jpg
Your stubbornness to admit that your version of the stance is rigid and unnatural compared to the game's stance is amazing. Even when so many people pointed out that the game's original stance looks better, you refused to admit it.

First of all, if you don't know, padded, chain, and leather pants are all thick. Don't forget the underwear.
Second of all, I draw the line from his heels because that's where his foot landed on the ground. You don't expect me to draw the lines from his toes, are you?
Here's another one so you can stop complaining about the shoulder lines. See my point? It's not wider than the shoulder.
tGcRCw0.png


As for the KCD stance, they look like that because the human body designs in that game is leaning toward a more realistic body proportion. Bannerlord's body proportion is leaning toward a more beefy, fantasy look. You have to use different stance for different body proportion.

As for the modded Warband animation, yea, it looks better than Bannerlord. But the point is, your suggested animation makes the character look like a wimpy highschool boy, it lacks both charisma and confidence.
 

eddiemccandless

Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
I can agree with the observation on the armor, but animations are actually just fine for me. They used motion capture, so... The individual animations don't get any more natural than that.


I do imagine that using motion capture makes transitions more difficult. Still, there are way bigger issues that need to be fixed with this game imo.
 

johncage213

Recruit
if these are mo cap, these are the worst mocap i've ever seen. in fact i f you look at the swings in the pic, they're swinging diagnally, there is no diagnal swinging in this game. either they're lying or they have not implemented these animations, or these animations were ultimately canned in favor of porting the ones from warband.

if you play the game and look at the animations, none of them look anything close to mocap. the couched lancing is directly ported over from warband

but say there is a possibility they will implement mo cap later on or that they're not finished implemented mocap for things like couched lancing, it's kind of doubtful for a game in beta stage. i am wishing to be proven wrong.
 

duchuy613

Veteran
if these are mo cap, these are the worst mocap i've ever seen. in fact i f you look at the swings in the pic, they're swinging diagnally, there is no diagnal swinging in this game. either they're lying or they have not implemented these animations, or these animations were ultimately canned in favor of porting the ones from warband.

if you play the game and look at the animations, none of them look anything close to mocap. the couched lancing is directly ported over from warband

but say there is a possibility they will implement mo cap later on or that they're not finished implemented mocap for things like couched lancing, it's kind of doubtful for a game in beta stage. i am wishing to be proven wrong.
I take it you never tried using two-handed sword in game? Because that right there is the two-handed left swing animation.
Additionally, probably all the death animations in the game are mocap.

Also, couched lance animation isn't ported from Warband. If you say it is, you probably never tried couching in Bannerlord. Anyone who did would have noticed the differences.
Bannerlord:
argVaBF.png

Warband:
pXwwXDs.png

How do you not see the differences?
 

johncage213

Recruit
you're right, they're different, but both are wrong in the same way too. the warband actually looks better and won't break his elbow upon impact.
 

johncage213

Recruit
this low poly model from total war attila looks better than the high quality detailed models in this game.why? because better proportions,cloth armor behaves like cloth armor, and the coif covers below the neck

lqqWFk1l.png


and the body is generally just more realistic. in this game, armor bloats you up, it looks like you're wearing a fat suit with foam halloween costume armor on top

total war honestly is a great example to aspire to, their artists are top notch. this just looks freaking amazing:

271tbhtlfiu01.png
 
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Teslanbenz

Recruit
Since we're being all technicall, i believe that soilders, especially those of nobel birth would be required to stand in a dignified manner rather than a natural, and relaxed one in front of their commander and especially a king. Even today in our military if a outranking officer enters the mess hall you stop eating and stand at attention, until told otherwise. Now, in battle, widing your legs lowers your center of gravity and provides leverage. This allows you to withstand forces exponentially higher than you could standing up straight.

@johncage213 i very seriously doubt we will be seeing any signifigant model changes. It's not like the game just needs to be polished and balanced, after a decade. Most core gameplay mechanics are either missing or not functioning. Models for some cities, like those of the aressai, arent even complete yet. Only a few battle fields are complete. I hear people saying it will be in EA for a year. If the rate of development of this game is any indication- this game can NOT be feature complete in a year. I am under the influence that they had to release the game for finacial reasons. It obviously is far from ready for release.
 
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RobustTurd

Sergeant
WB
I take it you never tried using two-handed sword in game? Because that right there is the two-handed left swing animation.
Additionally, probably all the death animations in the game are mocap.

Also, couched lance animation isn't ported from Warband. If you say it is, you probably never tried couching in Bannerlord. Anyone who did would have noticed the differences.
Bannerlord:
argVaBF.png

Warband:
pXwwXDs.png

How do you not see the differences?

God that couching animation is atrocious. I already made a post about this in multiplayer beta. The whole point of couching is to tuck the lance between your arm and torso to have that extra friction in preparation for impact. The bannerlord animation leaves a huge gap between the arm and the torso.
 

duchuy613

Veteran
God that couching animation is atrocious. I already made a post about this in multiplayer beta. The whole point of couching is to tuck the lance between your arm and torso to have that extra friction in preparation for impact. The bannerlord animation leaves a huge gap between the arm and the torso.
I never said it's a good animation. I just pointed out that it's not ported from warband, which was better.
 
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