Chamber blocking is non-functional

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Noudelle

Grandmaster Knight
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
I find it strange that such an integral part of M&B's combat, chamber blocking, doesn't work and yet nobody seems to care.
Here's an old video of me during the beta trying to understand chamber blocking in Bannerlord.


Whether or not I clicked the button when I should have to get a successful chamber block is hard to gauge as a viewer, but I'm the heavyweight world champion of chamber blocking. Most of the unsuccessful chambers in this video would have worked in Warband.

Since chamber blocking in Bannerlord is "physics-based™", weapons have to physically make contact with each other for it to work. This is different from Warband where chamber blocking was only a matter of consistent timing and positionning. Directly in front of your opponent, at a short distance, at the correct time.

This new "physics-based™" chamber blocking system is inherently inconsistent due to the large number of different weapons and animations. Chambering with a sword against a hammer will require different timing and positionning than chambering with a knife against a spear.

But most importantly, the animations themselves aren't made to facilitate chamber blocking. Some attacks, such as the ones shown in the video below, are mirrored and will move in parallel to each other instead of intersecting. These attacks are practically impossible to chamber.



To sum it up, here are the variables that come into play for chamber blocking in both games:
Bannerlord's variables:
- What weapon you're using
- What weapon your opponent is using
- Your opponent's height in relation to yours
- Your weapon's position
- Your enemy's weapon's position
- Your stance
- Your position in relation to your enemy's
- Correct attack direction
- Correct timing

Warband's variables:
- Your position in relation to your enemy's
- Correct attack direction
- Correct timing

This overcooked system needs to be entirely dumped if Taleworlds ever want chambering to be a mechanic that can be relied upon. It's at the moment an inherently inconsistent system due to the insane number of variables that go into the equation. Variables that no one here as regular human being can account for.

Please fix.
 
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Reapy

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I think they are actually using what we had in warband, it's just the swing animations and timings are way different. I spent some time trying to learn to chamber yesterday. The mirrored chambers are sort of ridiculous, I was only able to thrust chamber once. I was SORT of getting overhead but I wasn't reading the animation and I think it was just more memorized timing.

You can read *PREDICTABLE* left/right swings though, they are slow enough that if you know your weapon you are using you can smash them together. It helps me to think about punching the weapon away and being really late. I said predictable because I don't know how you can really do it vs good players, but right now the servers are just spam fest with no blocking or feinting.

That all said I can't see why you'd want to do it at all. Again we need duel for me to start to have a strong opinion, but I used to use chambers to eat through feints I couldn't handle or just mix up timing. It feels like the windows are so late to chamber I may as well just be blocking and return swinging to the guy on the other end of my chamber.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
chambering spears was pretty doable in warband, meanwhile in bannerlord...

i got 3000h of only chambering spears and in bannerlord i cant even chamber bots with spears
 

Noudelle

Grandmaster Knight
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
I think they are actually using what we had in warband, it's just the swing animations and timings are way different.
2020-04-05-15h31-45.jpg


It's not the same system. I guess TW felt it wasn't realistic enough, among other things.
 

flavberg

Knight
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
I remember reading a long time ago in one of their dev blogs, something with 'Inverse Kinematics' that they worked on for a while. Noudelle's right, it's sadly not the same system. Although this new system brings cool effects like your shield tilting to the side it is hit on, it seems to also bring great disadvantages.
 

jon01

Knight at Arms
I suspected that they had decided to make chambering harder due to the number of times it would happen accidentally in Warband (including by NPCs). But maybe it's just the physics-based system you mentioned. Ironically, it still happens, but now it's only ever accidental. And it does feel very unsatisfying if a chamber doesn't work when it definitely would have done in Warband. Chambers were exciting, for the player and the spectator.
 

Noudelle

Grandmaster Knight
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
I remember reading a long time ago in one of their dev blogs, something with 'Inverse Kinematics' that they worked on for a while. Noudelle's right, it's sadly not the same system. Although this new system brings cool effects like your shield tilting to the side it is hit on, it seems to also bring great disadvantages.
Inverse kinematics isn't related to chamber blocking in any way.
Inverse kinematics in Bannerlord every other game is little more than a neat visual effect. It doesn't affect the combat in any way except for slight hitbox position change after getting hit.
It also determines the vertical position of a character's feet depending on the ground they're standing on, but that's par for the course for any video game made in the last decade.
 

flavberg

Knight
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
Inverse kinematics isn't related to chamber blocking in any way.
Inverse kinematics in Bannerlord every other game is little more than a neat visual effect. It doesn't affect the combat in any way except for slight hitbox position change after getting hit.
It also determines the vertical position of a character's feet depending on the ground they're standing on, but that's par for the course for any video game made in the last decade.

Yeah, it was a long time ago that I read it, my bad. I just remember they used it for most animations and thus somehow thought it may contribute to it.
 

RCC_God

Knight
I think chamber blocking was a great way to increase the already limitless skill ceiling. I mean I met guys who didn’t even know it existed! I miss it like a ton of other gutted features
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it was made easier(Not too easy) to do with a proper visual cue it would make fights a hell of a lot more exciting. It should be encouraged to be part of a good players kit as a way to keep people on their toes.
 

jon01

Knight at Arms
So if chambers are difficult to the point that it's not recommended to attempt them at all, then they're only ever going to be an accidental thing, and if they're harder to block, or at least if they have more of a surprise element now, then it's just rewarding stupidity. Accidental chambers in Warband were a thing, but the relative easiness and prevalence of chambers meant that any experienced player would be accustomed to blocking them (especially if they're simple accidental chambers with no movement to make them more probable to hit).
 

RCC_God

Knight
So if chambers are difficult to the point that it's not recommended to attempt them at all, then they're only ever going to be an accidental thing, and if they're harder to block, or at least if they have more of a surprise element now, then it's just rewarding stupidity. Accidental chambers in Warband were a thing, but the relative easiness and prevalence of chambers meant that any experienced player would be accustomed to blocking them (especially if they're simple accidental chambers with no movement to make them more probable to hit).
Yeah only accidental chamber that’s the worst is an up attack 😿
 

MKLVN

Veteran
So are we upset that chamber blocking involves more precision now? I haven’t had much of an issue during tournaments with it. Even the NPCs have chamber blocked me.

Not trying to sound like An ass I wasn’t much of a multiplayer guy in WarbAnd so chamber blocking doesn’t really seem broken in Bannerlord to me.
 

Silen

Duke
So are we upset that chamber blocking involves more precision now? I haven’t had much of an issue during tournaments with it. Even the NPCs have chamber blocked me.

Not trying to sound like An ass I wasn’t much of a multiplayer guy in WarbAnd so chamber blocking doesn’t really seem broken in Bannerlord to me.

It requires too much precision and the timings are all over the place, so much so that nobody can pull them off reliably. Get a friend, take two swords, stand in front of each other and try to chamber upper swings. Tell me how many times you get hit and how many times you manage. Then try again while moving. At the moment chambers mostly happen accidentally.
 

MKLVN

Veteran
It requires too much precision and the timings are all over the place, so much so that nobody can pull them off reliably. Get a friend, take two swords, stand in front of each other and try to chamber upper swings. Tell me how many times you get hit and how many times you manage. Then try again while moving. At the moment chambers mostly happen accidentally.

Hmm yeah I guess I need to drill into it more I’ve only really attempted side swings and haven’t had any problems there.

Is it possible that Warband vets are just used to the chamber system in Warband and expect the same timing/method to work in Bannerlord? Maybe with the new system there’s just a different technique to get them to be more efficient? (Sounds odd as I do understand chambering itself is a specific technique and should be the same execution wise but just a thought)
 

Silen

Duke
Is it possible that Warband vets are just used to the chamber system in Warband and expect the same timing/method to work in Bannerlord? Maybe with the new system there’s just a different technique to get them to be more efficient? (Sounds odd as I do understand chambering itself is a specific technique and should be the same execution wise but just a thought)

There isn't really anything that can meaningfully help, sadly. The issue is that in Bannerlord, chambering requires your weapons to physically collide, and that is a degree of precision that is extremely hard for anyone to achieve — more or less so depending on the attack direction, with swings being the easiest. Add to that stances which make timings unreliable and we get what we have now.
 

MKLVN

Veteran
There isn't really anything that can meaningfully help, sadly. The issue is that in Bannerlord, chambering requires your weapons to physically collide, and that is a degree of precision that is extremely hard for anyone to achieve — more or less so depending on the attack direction, with swings being the easiest. Add to that stances which make timings unreliable and we get what we have now.

Yeah that makes sense. I just fear that most of the combat complaints seem to stem from the introduction of more variables/an increased level of difficulty in Bannerlord’s system when compared against Warband.

I think it took a long time for people to master Warband’s combat and get to such an impressive and skillful level. In my opinion, that same time and effort should be put into Bannerlord’s system which, in my eyes, makes seeing someone who is a master of the combat much more impressive and appreciated. Someone who is able to control their stance, timing, direction, etc. is truly a marvel and not just someone who watched a YouTube guide and figured out combat in an hour.

Although I do understand it’s a game and there should be a balance. In my opinion that actual need for physical collision of two weapons is a positive, not a negative.
 

jon01

Knight at Arms
It might sound good in theory to someone who doesn't play it that often, but in practice to people who have played and tested the game (for several months now) it's very much flawed and inferior. Now the chamber is just a bizarre move that people might get unintentionally when swinging randomly. There's no skill to it; it just rewards dumb luck. Saying "maybe it will turn out good in ways we don't understand yet" isn't a proper justification for the mechanic; it's just empty conjecture.
 

MKLVN

Veteran
It might sound good in theory to someone who doesn't play it that often, but in practice to people who have played and tested the game (for several months now) it's very much flawed and inferior. Now the chamber is just a bizarre move that people might get unintentionally when swinging randomly. There's no skill to it; it just rewards dumb luck. Saying "maybe it will turn out good in ways we don't understand yet" isn't a proper justification for the mechanic; it's just empty conjecture.

Well I don’t religiously play MP but I’ve been playing since early beta and outside of swing downward swings (which admittedly I have not even attempted) I can chamber pretty regularly if I’m attempting to do so.

I haven’t mastered it by any means but if I see the opportunity on a side swing and my brain registers the possibility of a chamber fast enough I typically do it.
 
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