Cavalry Charges Lost their Impact

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vicwiz007

vicwiz007

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It's been bothering me for a while now, why it feels like charges have no impact any more. Well, it's because they don't. In the beta it was too easy to get knocked over by cav (see this post by Noudelle), now it's way too hard. Here are just a few examples.


If you add the fact that cavalry seem unable to hit infantry properly, the charges appear to have no impact. Some middle ground between what I demonstrated and what Noudelle shows would be great.
 
I mean, runing over a pesant with your fully armored warhorse just to see that 'delivered 4 damage' feels really cheap. Looter that hurdles a rock towards you can deal more damage than that. It just doesnt seem ok.
 
I played multiplayer for the first time recently and was shocked to see that getting knocked over by horses is actually a thing in bannerlord.

I think if you add a"brace" mechanic to infantry in formation ect so prevent them from getting knocked over and then make cavalry charges much more impactful on infantry who aren't prepared it'd make combat a lot more interesting
 
vicwiz007 said:
It's been bothering me for a while now, why it feels like charges have no impact any more. Well, it's because they don't. In the beta it was too easy to get knocked over by cav (see this post by Noudelle), now it's way too hard. Here are just a few examples.


If you add the fact that cavalry seem unable to hit infantry properly, the charges appear to have no impact. Some middle ground between what I demonstrated and what Noudelle shows would be great.
Click to expand...

Weird. I feel like MP and SP charges work differently. People always get knocked out by slowly trotting cav in MP.
 
mamastoast said:
I played multiplayer for the first time recently and was shocked to see that getting knocked over by horses is actually a thing in bannerlord.

I think if you add a"brace" mechanic to infantry in formation ect so prevent them from getting knocked over and then make cavalry charges much more impactful on infantry who aren't prepared it'd make combat a lot more interesting
Click to expand...
If there are any spears in that formation they already stop cav charges very effectively.
It would be cool if heavier geared infantry was better at withstanding cav charges than light infantry, based on weight of equipment and maybe Str atrribute, but I'm guessing that's something for a later time.
 
Matador234 said:
If there are any spears in that formation they already stop cav charges very effectively.
It would be cool if heavier geared infantry was better at withstanding cav charges than light infantry, based on weight of equipment and maybe Str atrribute, but I'm guessing that's something for a later time.
Click to expand...
Problem is that infantry in formation are really.. really bad at attacking anything. Anyone charging directly into braced spears should suffer heavy losses, not just stop :smile:

On the other hand, being cavalry charged from the rear should cause much more damage... Honestly I feel ike my heavy cavalry act more like tanks than actually dealing any damage. I was once attacking my enemy's cavalry with my own cataphracts and noone died for a good minute. (aside from the ones I killed myself obviously)
 
mamastoast said:
Problem is that infantry in formation are really.. really bad at attacking anything. Anyone charging directly into braced spears should suffer heavy losses, not just stop :smile:

On the other hand, being cavalry charged from the rear should cause much more damage... Honestly I feel ike my heavy cavalry act more like tanks than actually dealing any damage. I once attacking my enemy's cavalry with my own cataphracts and noone died for a good minute. (aside from the ones I killed myself obviously)
Click to expand...

You'll love this then. According to a devblog or some such Taleworlds actually had a fully competent AI at dealing with cavalry using spears in a formation but they removed it as it was too powerful.
 
Mabons said:
You'll love this then. According to a devblog or some such Taleworlds actually had a fully competent AI at dealing with cavalry using spears in a formation but they removed it as it was too powerful.
Click to expand...
Yea I read something about that.. Hard to tell if they made the right choice without seeing the two scenarios in action I guess... But something certainly needs to be done about the current state of things.. Spears don't work as they should and shieldwalls render your soldiders unable to attack
 
mamastoast said:
I played multiplayer for the first time recently and was shocked to see that getting knocked over by horses is actually a thing in bannerlord.

I think if you add a"brace" mechanic to infantry in formation ect so prevent them from getting knocked over and then make cavalry charges much more impactful on infantry who aren't prepared it'd make combat a lot more interesting
Click to expand...
Yeah I must admit I havent even touched MP since SP came out, so I didnt actually test whether the kockdown had been changed there. That's not a bad idea, but it might give defensive strategies even more of an advantage (not sure if thats a good or bad thing).
 
vicwiz007 said:
Yeah I must admit I havent even touched MP since SP came out, so I didnt actually test whether the kockdown had been changed there. That's not a bad idea, but it might give defensive strategies even more of an advantage (not sure if thats a good or bad thing).
Click to expand...
I don't know if I agree that defensive stategies are even a thing at the moment? Certainly if you consider using a ton of archers defensive, I agree with you, but in terms of infantry the best thing you can do charge which is rather disapointing.
 
Mabons said:
You'll love this then. According to a devblog or some such Taleworlds actually had a fully competent AI at dealing with cavalry using spears in a formation but they removed it as it was too powerful.
Click to expand...
But.. but... that would be so sexy... Then you'd have to use real tactics. Cavalry shouldn't be able to charge into a line of pikemen. That's why you engage said line with your own infantry while you circle around and charge those ****ers from the back with your cav.

Strangely, spears always seem to work well against me. I am not a pro, but still... that one looter with a pitchfork always seems to be able to get me whenever i'm within striking distance, so whenever I see some poking pointy ends I always avoid that general area of human mass.
 
It's like there's someone at TW is intentionally making the game worse. Everything from the unit collision/clipping which was better in 2016 to the cav charges having no impact, to the sick joke of of a cav AI even relative to warband. Even basic things like perks, culture buffs, snowballing, either no one tested the game prior to EA or someone's intentionally sabotaging the game.
 
The Luminary said:
It's like there's someone at TW is intentionally making the game worse. Everything from the unit collision/clipping which was better in 2016 to the cav charges having no impact, to the sick joke of of a cav AI even relative to warband. Even basic things like perks, culture buffs, snowballing, either no one tested the game prior to EA or someone's intentionally sabotaging the game.
Click to expand...
Well it's a good thing we're involved now to lead them in the right direction ? they can still fix it. I don't want to think what might've been had they not done EA at all. Not that the mp is perfect but compare it to when the beta just started.
 
I just tried it today. I assembled a force of 150 Cavalry, about 60 heavy and 90 light armored. Using them against pure infantry/ranged units is no fun at all. From my point of view there are several problems:
First: The already mentioned collision that removes all the impact. As I read somewhere "well oiled Cav". This is also a problem of inf. vs inf.
Second: After a successful charge at any Infantry formation a huge amount of your cav just stands in between the enemy infantry to get killed. While the rest of the cav moves out and starts individual charges that are for the most part ineffective.
Third: Mostly because of the second issue you have to lead the cav all the time to make effective use of it. There are two problems with leading and commanding cavalry formations right now. On the one hand, your cav will always be far behind u, I tried to go slow with the horse but they take very long to catch up with you. Im not sure why they move so slow, it feels like they only use full speed when u tell them to charge (but then a huge amount wanders off to catch some skirmishers etc.). On the other hand, they are difficult to move if you let them charge into an enemy and then order them to move out (so they don't scatter/get slaughtered) they often start to "walk" go on lowest possible speed. It seems they wanna first form their assigned formation (wedge, etc.) before they move to their assigned position (this also happens with inf sometimes).
Fourth: If I don't use charge command and just let cav follow me to crash into some archer formation only a small amount of my units try to attack. Because of that I always have to use the charge command, followed by the follow/to position order so my cav wont scatter.

These are the issues I have discovered so far. I don't ask for an op cav like we had in warband, but I would prefer a cav that has the ability to execute impactful charges over the current one.
Another thing I experienced was the reaction of archers to cav charges. They just walk around and adjust their formation, while the cav runs in between them. Archers seem to make very little effort to fight off the cav, they rarely shot or use melee.
 
vicwiz007 said:
Not reverted, because it was too common then. Somewhere between then and now.
Click to expand...

Honestly, between the two I would prefer the old system myself. Which could be countered by a competent AI with spears. If it's true that they scrapped the AI because it was too competent, that is really sad. You can have cavalry be somewhat OP if there's a counter to it (and I suppose that that makes it not OP :smile: ).

Also yes, cavalry was strong in Warband, but charging in a blob of Rhodoks spear was not a great idea even with the poor AI. And I would be ok myself with balance being skewed towards horses in open field battles, especially since you now you need to buy warhorses to get high tier units.

Whatever happens, please let's get rid of this... Weird sliding behavior. Archers right now can actually just slide and shoot at you after your charge at them. It's weird.
 
Not sure what the devs were thinking. Even with the mod that buffs cav charge damage by 10x, it still doesn't feel right because of the "oily cavalry". The AI for every unit type except horse archers are worse than in warband,
 
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