Cavalry AI downgrade in full release ?

[Carióceco]

While before the cavalry accelerated to the maximum, charged troops on the ground without stopping and group together at a good distance to charge again, as it should be in reality, after the update they collide and stop on the troops as if the horse were a paper plane, the first knights manage pass but 80% stay there, pile up and take about 30s to leave ? Why that ? Developers don't test the game itself after updating it ? Cavalry basically went back to warband with this update

 

[Ichon]

Good question- I didn't know TW had ever managed to fix cavalry NOT to get stuck but I took a couple years break since it went into EA and just came back for the official release.

 

[Carióceco]

Good question- I didn't know TW had ever managed to fix cavalry NOT to get stuck but I took a couple years break since it went into EA and just came back for the official release.

In 1.8 to 1.9 it was very good idk why they let the ai like this **** in full release

I don't know exactly if this is a ai problem as well, maybe it can be the horse push that has been lowered

 

[LyonExodus]

Have you encountered the same happening against units that are not the Legionary?
because i just want to let you know that the Pilum is a great anti cav weapon. And it does have the power to stop a charging horse

I am running a few tests currently to see if i encounter the same but thus far it looks the same as in: the same as 1.9. and 1.8.1.

 

[Carióceco]

Have you encountered the same happening against units that are not the Legionary?
because i just want to let you know that the Pilum is a great anti cav weapon. And it does have the power to stop a charging horse

I am running a few tests currently to see if i encounter the same but thus far it looks the same as in: the same as 1.9. and 1.8.1.

Yeah i'm saying that because it happened many times in my campaign gameplay

 

[LyonExodus]

So i switched to the Enehanced battle test mod and i was able to get a similar scenario happen when the enemies had 0 tactics and 100.

now i don't know if that is 0 as 0 and 100 as 330 or not. But at 50 (halfway) tactics i encountered the same as in custom battles.
at this point i am unsure if it's just a matter of something changed or not. But it might.

What i was able to notice is that (at 0 and 100 tactics) in order to make the horses stop the infantry was more packed and deep than at 50 tactics where they stayed in a longer and thinner line.

only thing i can say for sure after this is: avoid charging against a tight infantry formation.

 

[Antaeus]

I think we'd have to take into account the infantry being charged. In game you're likely to have a mix of troops. The screenshot has a number of different troop types in it if I'm not mistaken, and the make-up will have a dramatic difference in how cavalry pass through. There are a lot more random pikemen in the full release for example. Even charge resistance might come into it.

Also, reared up horses might stop from passing through, but regain their composure and continue on, more of them will make the reforming afterwards messy as the centre of mass is scattered and more likely to be closer to the point of impact.

Also a deeper infantry line is going to remove charge bonuses on troops past the front row or two, so they can stand up and melee against cavalry much more effectively. A horse that kills a front row troop on the charge, might be stopped by the third row, and piled on by the 4th or 5th row. Even with enough cavalry mass to push through, those trailing do get taken down, speared, scattered and disorganised.

 

[Carióceco]

So i switched to the Enehanced battle test mod and i was able to get a similar scenario happen when the enemies had 0 tactics and 100.

now i don't know if that is 0 as 0 and 100 as 330 or not. But at 50 (halfway) tactics i encountered the same as in custom battles.
at this point i am unsure if it's just a matter of something changed or not. But it might.

What i was able to notice is that (at 0 and 100 tactics) in order to make the horses stop the infantry was more packed and deep than at 50 tactics where they stayed in a longer and thinner line.

only thing i can say for sure after this is: avoid charging against a tight infantry formation.

Against imperial recruits, same thing they stop and accumulate there:

 

[LyonExodus]

i used recruits. imperial. in the tests. They do have pitchforks but 1/4 does.

But i did see the horses getting stop the way that it was described by the poster. And the horses just stops soon after impact, and has a tough time getting trough even when pushed by another horseman behind them

So he does make a fair point. Now it's up to figuring out what 0 and 100 tactics means in the mod i used when we convert those values to the game.
If it works like kaoses i think its 0 to 330.

Against imperial recruits, same thing they stop and accumulate there:

well, guess i didn't post in time but i am glad we are getting the same results

 

[Carióceco]

i used recruits. imperial. in the tests. They do have pitchforks but 1/4 does.

But i did see the horses getting stop the way that it was described by the poster. And the horses just stops soon after impact, and has a tough time getting trough even when pushed by another horseman behind them

So he does make a fair point. Now it's up to figuring out what 0 and 100 tactics means in the mod i used when we convert those values to the game.
If it works like kaoses i think its 0 to 330.

well, guess i didn't post in time but i am glad we are getting the same results

I tested enhanced battle test and it was the same thing even changing the tactics, another thing that contributes to that it's that now the cavalry are much slower than before too, before you can see that Ratagost couldn't overtake banner knights when they are in full speed, now he can easily do that

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Yeah they still dog pile too much and do other weird behaviors that get them killed for no reason. They're actually better then they were pre-1.9/release, but still lots of room for improvement. Using the RTS command mod help you at least make sure they can all attack the same group, but on consoles, tuff luck. Hope they add group targeting to base game soon.

 

[Agroplode]

It feels like it but I could be biased. I lost many of my Knights in the last battle. Came here looking to what is going on. They might have tweaked something in last patch that was not mentioned. I will try ride the same horses for charging in and see if they stop me.

 

[geala]

...

only thing i can say for sure after this is: avoid charging against a tight infantry formation.

That could be taken out of an old military manual from the time when real cavalry charges took place. Cavalry never was great in charging dense unwavered infantry formations.

It could happen and could be successful, and it happened during history, sometimes. Theoretically a medium horse traveling at 40 km/h can mow down about 7 humans (average weight 70 kg) until being stopped, if you measure just the physical factors involved. However the moral and determination of the riders (and training, and weapons, like the extremely long lances of the Polish hussars) played a big role, and often cavalry stopped short of the infantry and tried to poke with lances/swords and looked for small gaps in the infantry to exploit.

BL might be at an acceptable spot currently, after the inability of cavalry to hit with lances/spears was changed. If they could ride down infantry without problems as wished, we had Swadian knights as the only necessary unit in game again. Cavalry could be improved however considerably by being able to choose the formation they should attack; that this is not in the game is a terrible design.

Players don't like randomness, but there could be a random generator (+ taking moral of the involved troops, weapons, armor, numbers, movement, formation, tier into account) for when a cavalry attack succeeded to break through infantry or not. Will never happen, I bet.

 

[Ni]

I've been experimenting more with cavalry, not actual tests as in setting up battles with a mod, but just trying various things in game. For me anyway, it seems as though chaos is the key. Once the enemy is engaged with my foot troops or turning around trying to defend or attack horse archers, the melee cavalry seems to work much better.

I usually wait until the enemy is just getting into bow range and "F6" my horse archers (they don't even have to be Khan's Guards, any of them survive pretty well), have the infantry advance or charge, "F6" my melee cavalry, most times they will split up to protect the flanks and just sit there or go after enemy cavalry, and while this is going on my archers are getting shots into troops (some of which have their back turned trying to defend against the horse archers). About the time my infantry clashes with the enemy the melee cavalry will charge in to protect them (sometimes it requires manually getting them to group up again if they are tangled up with other cav units, then charging).

So cavalry isn't the old "fire and forget" unit that it was in the past (Warband), but they do seem to have their uses, even if it might be just keeping the enemy cavalry busy, they just seem to need some micro managing. Still, it is an expensive unit to upgrade and I seem to get stuck in quite a few "cavalry unfriendly" maps, so I usually only keep a small cavalry force.

 

[Brano]

I don't see any difference between 1.9 and release version + I dont charge my horses head on to enemy formation. I soften enemy up with arrows while my horses flank and atak preferably from rear.

 

[geala]

If you want to play cavalry heavy, you need quite a number of it and should split them into several units, three or four for example. You have to micromanage but you can destroy most infantry by timed charges from different directions. Or you install Realistic Battle Mod (which despite it's name does not create realistic battles) and have superior heavy cavalry from the start.

 

[Brano]

I think 2 wings of horses > left and right are plenty enough. I don't like micromanaging. My usual go-to formation is:

 

[LyonExodus]

That could be taken out of an old military manual from the time when real cavalry charges took place. Cavalry never was great in charging dense unwavered infantry formations.

Yeah it would be common sense but you know how games can be at times. So even if my statement sounded stupid in the context of a game is less so.

But i don't find Bannerlord cavalry to be in a bad state right now. Noble cav is quite good and even standard T5 are much better.
Some extra improvements might be made but for now it's fine

 

[JunKeteer]

Cavalry are quite fine now compared to before, they definitely are the strongest units out there and rack up the most kills.
Where it gets dodgy is when you get to those large battles and they all get stuck with the infantry where they die more than they normally 'should' with smaller# battles. As well as not reforming up as well as the initial charge since they end up all over the map literally (unless you manually command them again) and end up just charging in out of pace/solo; especially when the opposition has their mix of cavalry and HAs too that confuses the AI formation.

 

[Agroplode]

As I said it can be bias now, but even for Tournaments I notice the spear use seem improved far beyond what it was.