Catalan Independence

How should the Spanish Government handle the independence movement?

  • Give them independence

    Votes: 30 21.3%
  • Prevent independence (current position)

    Votes: 42 29.8%
  • Offer a referendum on independence (UK-Scotland Style)

    Votes: 69 48.9%

  • Total voters
    141

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Sure, you can tell yourself that Catalans are Spaniards, not distinct in any way whatsoever, if it makes you sleep better. Go ahead and deny that we are a community which shares a common culture that has been going on for centuries (despite the many several attempts to wipe it out), attached to a clearly demarcated land, with our unique values, a common past and a project for the future. Please, tell yourself that we are a romantic movement made up of 4 peasants brainwashed by an elite group of politicians who control our every thought and action. Deny what we are -a nation- and object our right of self determination since, after all, we are as Spanish as someone from Toledo, identically so. That type of behaviour is precisely what made millions of Catalans feel disconnected from Spain over the last years. There is no lack of regard to our "fellow countrymen" since we stopped thinking of them like that a LONG time ago.

Are some of you blind?

Can't you see that our demands are not based off egocentrism and selfishness? We are solidary, and we have been for years, with Europe, and with the rest of the regions of Spain. But for fraternity to be really possible, you need respect. And respect must go both ways, when there isn't any respect it ceases to be solidarity to become unjustifiable economic spoliation.

Can't you see further than the economic aspects of independance? We are not solely concerned about the economic aspects of our lives, the Catalan independence movement started before the crisis, before Franco, before Primo de Rivera, before Cánovas and Sagasta...it's an identity and cultural issue, not only an economic one. Some posters here are obsessed with us being filthy rich bankers that refuse to share anything with anyone. And that's NOTHING of the sort. If our region managed to rise above the country's backwardness it was due to our industrious nature, creativity, heart, will to achieve our goals and pure hard work.

Can't you see that a movement of millions that have been continuously protesting peacefully is not guided by the hand of the politicians? It is us who elected them in the first place. We elected the government to fulfill our electoral mandate, and that is what they are doing. Some of these MP's and gov officials in Parliament weren't even separatists to begin with. It's a movement that starts and moves from the bottom, not the top. Directed and guided by grassroots organizations and the people. It is the ordinary people who, right now, organize groups in every city and village to defend the electoral colleges from police and unionist hooligans, sleeping overnight and safeguarding our sovereignty.

Can't you see that we aren't a bunch of nationalist-tribalist narrow minded dorks? There is a Catalan ethnicity, nevertheless where you are from is not what we care the most. Heck, we are a crossroads territory for the cultures and nations of the Mediterranean sea, we have been for centuries and we will be for years to come. All of them left their mark, including Spain. And we do not shy away from it, we aknowledge it as part of our identity. We have people from all over the world, from different backrounds throughout the political spectrum. What ties us is the common values, language, culture and fierce love of freedom and motherland.

What makes us different, in your eyes, than Tibetans, Québécois, Walloons, Flemish, Scots, Basques, Faroese and so on?
If the methods of the Spanish state, such as the deployment of 10.000 military police on the streets of Barcelona, arrests of government officials and ordinary citizens on the charges of sedition, the shutting down of webpages, the seizing of ballot boxes and papers, the summoning of 712 of the region's 948 mayors to court for collaborating with the voting, the gradual erosion of individual rights, etcetera don't convince you that, if the law is unjust, one must disobey it, I honestly don't know what can I say to convince you otherwise. Democracy, popular mandate, human rights and self determination are above a Constitution and Rule of Law that does not guarantee those.

Tomorrow is the day. I won't post anymore for some time after things calm down. I hope no one gets injured tomorrow, and we are allowed to peacefully vote and ask the millions of eligible voters if they want their country to remain a part or Spain or to become a free, independent Republic. Threats do no longer affect us at this stage, they pledged to stop the vote, so be it, they will find the people defending the ballot boxes and the electoral colleges.

Last but not least, one video about the student demonstration two days ago in Barcelona (there's a student strike across Catalan universities as we speak) and a very insightful article.



 
But for fraternity to be really possible, you need respect.
What a hollow, sanctimonious argument.

If our region managed to rise above the country's backwardness it was due to our industrious nature, creativity, heart, will to achieve our goals and pure hard work.
I like how you are implying the rest of spain is a bunch of lazy bums compared to you. Dat respect. :iamamoron:

What makes us different, in your eyes, than Tibetans,
Really?

Québécois, Walloons, Flemish, Scots, Basques, Faroese and so on?
Nothing much. All of these "nations" should follow the legal procedures available to them.

If the methods of the Spanish state, such as the deployment of 10.000 military police on the streets of Barcelona, arrests of government officials and ordinary citizens on the charges of sedition, the shutting down of webpages, the seizing of ballot boxes and papers, the summoning of 712 of the region's 948 mayors to court for collaborating with the voting, the gradual erosion of individual rights, etcetera don't convince you that, if the law is unjust, one must disobey it, I honestly don't know what can I say to convince you otherwise. Democracy, popular mandate, human rights and self determination are above a Constitution and Rule of Law that does not guarantee those.
You are the ones going against a democratic constitution and the will of the majority. The people of spain have not given you a popular mandate for secession. What you are doing is not democratic and your dishonest presentation of "rights to self-determination" does not change that.
National self-determination appears to challenge the principle of territorial integrity (or sovereignty) of states as it is the will of the people that makes a state legitimate. This implies a people should be free to choose their own state and its territorial boundaries. However, there are far more self-identified nations than there are existing states and there is no legal process to redraw state boundaries according to the will of these peoples.[33] According to the Helsinki Final Act of 1975, the UN, ICJ and international law experts, there is no contradiction between the principles of self-determination and territorial integrity, with the latter taking precedence.
 
I find it interesting you guys are still talking about the hypotheticals and philosophy while the Spanish federal government legitimizes the referendum by arresting and abusing their citizens en masse for participating in the movement. The Spanish government has never been known for the fair treatment of their people, but for an EU nation to be acting this way in 2017 kinda surprised me.
 
Jean-Chrysostôme Bruneteau de Sainte-Suzanne said:
I find it interesting you guys are still talking about the hypotheticals and philosophy while the Spanish federal government legitimizes the referendum by arresting and abusing their citizens en masse for participating in the movement. The Spanish government has never been known for the fair treatment of their people, but for an EU nation to be acting this way in 2017 kinda surprised me.
Oh, I certainly agree that Spain is not being smart about this entire mess. Just dislike leaving these claims of moral superiority as they are.
 
You get glimpses of real nationalism ("no respect!") between the cool-headed arguments about democracy and such. At least we know what motivates Gasset. Which is not much given he's a teenager, most easily swayed group for identity politics including nationalism. Sorry dude, not your fault really.

What are the average Catalan inhabitants thinking? It's hard to know without a trustworthy poll, and tomorrow's vote is fully politicized to bring showdown with Madrid and strengthen the independence movement. It's not a serious democratic question at all.
 
Every person unjustly arrested or beaten by federal government goons is several family members and friends who weren't supporters of independence that now are, so there's that.
 
Rodrigo Ribaldo said:
You get glimpses of real nationalism ("no respect!") between the cool-headed arguments about democracy and such. At least we know what motivates Gasset. Which is not much given he's a teenager, most easily swayed group for identity politics including nationalism. Sorry dude, not your fault really.

What are the average Catalan inhabitants thinking? It's hard to know without a trustworthy poll, and tomorrow's vote is fully politicized to bring showdown with Madrid and strengthen the independence movement. It's not a serious democratic question at all.

That was sort of harsh from you. I am not a teen, or some kind of hardcore mindless nationalist-nativist... I am not swayed by anyone. My actions, words and thoughts are freely mine.
Your statement sort of made me feel bad, like if you were patronizing me and treating me like a child when I defended my point of view on this subject without offending anyone (or at least I try to). Keep in mind that this subject is close to my heart in many aspects and I might sound very agitated in some of my posts.
I AM an average Catalan inhabitant, not some kind of brainwashed hooligan, like pictured above. I can't think of any polls to refer you to at the moment, there are many and I am not sure of which is really the most accurate one. Tomorrow's vote (if it's held) will be indeed highly politicized, but that's on both sides. The Catalan gov side for creating a huge amount of expectation around this event for weeks without really knowing how the outcome will be and the Spanish government for escalating the tension with its threats and poor handling of the situation.

This is a serious democratic question. It has all the tools and characteristics that -considering the situation the regional gov is in- a referendum has. And the answer will be binding. Those who choose not to vote can freely do so, but they shouldn't freak out once the result is implemented. If the government does NOT implement the result I will personally be very disappointed, and it will surely create an enormous sense of frustration, and it goes for both the yes and no.
 
Rodrigo Ribaldo said:
What if they are hugged and kissed by federal officers?
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I'm very in. Apparently the Legion has males and females, can you get hugs and kisses from one of each - it's for gender equality, you see.
 
As a matter of fact you can buy recreations of their uniforms in kinky shops for your special needs  :fruity:
 
Any soldier who protests you wearing their uniform purely for the purposes of banging isn't a real soldier. Also, I am surprised there are recreations of that uniform in particular, but I really shouldn't be. :lol:
 
Some trivia.

The Legion has a goat as a mascot btw. The goat parades along, with its sexy uniform. I think I read somewhere that during the colonial wars in Morrocco they had a monkey. I would have loved to see that.



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