Catalan Independence

[Duh]

Switch "From Madrid" to "from the rest of Spain". As I was saying, there is little to no attempt to actually give a political answer to catalanism.

You mean aside from the autonomy that they have been given?

I don't know **** about Catalan case, but being able to leave the social contract is kind of important for democratic legitimacy.

Only in the broadest sense of a majority being able to utilize or implement constitutional gate-ways towards secession.

 

[kurczak]

If you don't see any unfairness, injustice or opression in all the methods used by the Spanish state againts a peaceful democratic movement then I don't know what to say to you. Perhaps would would understand better the relationship between Catalonia and Spain if you carefully went through the last centuries. Colonial wars, military occupations, cultural assimilation, the several attempts to terminate our political autonomy and cultural uniqueness, etcetera... Problems are solved doing politics, not throwing judges or tanks at people. The right to self-determination of peoples is not only reserved to those under colonial status, but to all nations who wish to decide. According to your logic most seccession referendums/movements wouldn't even be legal...

No they wouldn't. As far as I'm concerned, secession is legitimate if the group is either oppressed on account of being the group or if original country agrees or if the original country's laws have a pre-defined process and criteria for secession.

Neither of which is true for Catalonia or Catalans. Catalans have the same, high-standard civil rights as any other Spaniards and Catalan language and culture can be exercised freely and it is even (co-)official language in Catalan-heavy territories. To present your situation as oppression is incredibly self-absorbed and insulting to groups that do suffer under oppressive regimes. Like a spoiled child complaining that daddy won't buy him a fourth yacht and he just can't possibly endure this crippling poverty.

And I do insist although you don't listen. The voting in 2014 was not binding, not official, and that was expressed repetitively by both the Catalan government and the Spanish government. I am not spinning anything around. In the other side, the upcoming voting is completely different, since it is considered to be binding, which will naturally increase the participation in contrast with the 2014, in which many people weren't arsed to vote since it was a non-official thing and dismissed it as a charade.

Ok, this will be your first true referendum.

And if not loss of office what would you like the central government to do to respond the treason of not only the politicians, but also the hundreds of thousands of volunteers and the millions of demonstrators that gathered in the past years? What is it that you would employ? Something harsher perhaps? The loss of our autonomy or the direct use of force? We have nothing to lose and nothing to fight back with.

As long as the protesters don't resort to violence, I wouldn't do anything to them, exactly because Spain is and should be a liberal democracy so they can demonstrate for whatever dumb cause they want. But a government official using the power of his office and public money to pursue illegal goals, is a different story and should obviously be a felony.

 

[PrinceNaga]

I'm curious about this, having done some reading on the subject from a Reddit post. I noticed many people aren't happy with Catalonia trying to secede, seeing as to whats the point, and rather how selfish it is since it will hurt both them and Spain. I've also read some posts stating that Catalonia economic miracle was partly due to people and machinery leaving Andalucia, and by being apart of Spain, whilst stating that tourism alone won't save Catalonia if it seceded? On the other hand, I've read complaining from the Balearics about people seeing first-hand being denied the application for wanting to build new rail lines and trains in the islands whilst the south of Spain gets most of the funding?

I honestly don't see why Catalonia should secede though, its an autonomous region, and I've read Barcelona collects its own taxes separate from Spain, has its own Parliament, so as an outsider on the outside I don't get it. I don't seen any oppression, or any legality recourse to do so. To me, its the equivalent of Texas or California being yielded greater autonomy more than what the fifty states currently have in the non-unitary government, and being treated extra special, yet seeking secession still. The way I see it, its purely an economic issue under the guise of culture and language, or at least what the politicians are selling Catalonian's.

If anyone deserved special autonomy, it would be African Americans in the United States congregating somewhere, or if anyone Native Americans since their tribal land isn't actually owned by them, since they have to contact the government to build something. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see Spaniard's beating the **** out of Catalonian's around Spain proper, or the Spanish equivalent of KKK torching Catalonian schools and houses, so the local sentiment is lost on me. I wanna see both sides though.

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/6g7741/catalonia_sets_independence_referendum_the_1st_of/ I find these discussions very interesting.

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

I honestly don't see why Catalonia should secede though, its an autonomous region, and I've read Barcelona collects its own taxes separate from Spain, has its own Parliament, so as an outsider on the outside I don't get it. I don't seen any oppression, or any legality recourse to do so. To me, its the equivalent of Texas or California being yielded greater autonomy more than what the fifty states currently have in the non-unitary government, and being treated extra special, yet seeking secession still.

I remember being told or reading that Spain tries to make federalism as symmetrical(in contrast with asymmetrical autonomy enjoyed by Quebec)  as possible because of constitution. How much more power does Catalonia has compared to other regions in Spain?

If anyone deserved special autonomy, it would be African Americans in the United States congregating somewhere, or if anyone Native Americans since their tribal land isn't actually owned by them, since they have to contact the government to build something. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see Spaniard's beating the **** out of Catalonian's around Spain proper, or the Spanish equivalent of KKK torching Catalonian schools and houses, so the local sentiment is lost on me. I wanna see both sides though.

:like:

 

[Austupaio]

If anyone deserved special autonomy, it would be African Americans in the United States congregating somewhere, or if anyone Native Americans since their tribal land isn't actually owned by them, since they have to contact the government to build something. Unless I'm missing something

You are. Missing quite a lot really.

 

[Mad Vader]

If anyone deserved special autonomy, it would be African Americans in the United States congregating somewhere, or if anyone Native Americans since their tribal land isn't actually owned by them, since they have to contact the government to build something. Unless I'm missing something

You are. Missing quite a lot really.

Liberia?

 

[Weaver]

I don't know **** about Catalan case, but being able to leave the social contract is kind of important for democratic legitimacy.

Only in the broadest sense of a majority being able to utilize or implement constitutional gate-ways towards secession.

Following a legal procedure is perfectly within the boundaries of social contract.

Thank you for your much valued input.

To be more specific, breaking the social contract has nothing to do with execution of some innate rights or whatnot. It's just literally antisocial behaviour.
My little joke was aimed at your apparent adoption of worst ideas from unrelated ideologies. In another thread you were defending the big state and unnecessarily intrusive laws. In this thread you suggest that the occasional treason (which breaking the social contract amounts to in this case) somehow legitimizes the democratic process. You can not build a functioning society on any of those principles but brought together they create a simply hilarious concoction.

 

[Gasset]

Going to answer to some questions asked, and also reply to some statements given during the posts I've missed yesterday!

Prince Naga
-Catalonia economic miracle was partly due to people and machinery leaving Andalucia, and by being apart of Spain, whilst stating that tourism alone won't save Catalonia if it seceded?

The Catalonia economic miracle largely mirrors the bigger Spanish miracle which happened between 1959 to 1974 and spans through the end of postwar era Spain until the death of Francisco Franco, this miracle is normally regarded to be caused (amongst other things) by the substitution of old government falangist officials to the new "technocrats", who abandoned falangist economic doctrines and moved on to economic liberalism (whilst still embracing the Francoist political system) and implemented modern development plans which reinvigorated the economy of the three main economic centers (Catalonia, Madrid and the Basque Country). In Catalonia, as you mentioned, aside from these ocurrences happening across Spain we also got a steady flow of migrants from the rural poverty post-war stricken regions of Spain (such as Andalucía or Extremadura) who moved to Catalonia in search of employment and opportunities that didn't exist in their home regions. As I mentioned in previous posts this immigration wave is the first one in Catalonia, beggining in the sixties, and created a dramatic change in demographics. From 1900 to 1940 Catalonia's population was of a steady 2 million, most of them ethnic Catalans, and by the 1970's the population already reached 5 millions. This created problems (such as the lack of integration of many first-generation immigrants and their children) but it also created unprecedented growth, recovery and wealth, and these families were able to find the opportunities and new begginings they set off for. These immigrants from the south are regarded by most people (and myself as well) to have greatly contributed to create the economic powerhouse Catalonia is today, and many Catalans if not most have descendants that came from those regions. In your question you state that they brought machinery, which is not true. There wasn't any economic development in these regions and they remain backwards today in comparison to the northern regions, who have been largely handing out subsidies for their development even now. Catalonia, in the other hand, already was largely industralized by then. We were the first region in Spain to embrace the Industrial Revolution and Barcelona has been and is a important hub for commerce in the European continent, being the richest region of Spain as we speak and having a higher GDP than some European nations, Catalonia is right now one of the Four Motors for Europe, along with Lombardy, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes and Baden-Württemberg). A free, sovereign and independent Catalan Republic can surely survive as a free nation. We do not overdepend of tourism, our economy is well diversified.

-I honestly don't see why Catalonia should secede though, its an autonomous region, and I've read Barcelona collects its own taxes separate from Spain, has its own Parliament, so as an outsider on the outside I don't get it.

Becuase a great segment of Catalan society believes that they would be better off if their homeland was an independent state, for economic, historic and identity reasons. And since the legal framework makes it near impossible to change the constitution and have a legal referendum, and the other side doesn't seem to want to dialogue or present alternatives we are arranging our own vote so people can decide, not a decade or fifty years until the Spaniards change their mind, but now, since the problem is causing tensions and must be resolved. We are a nation and we have the right to decide, it doesn't matter how much people try to deride and degrade us, and it doesn't matter if our backs aren't being whipped, no one can shut our voices, we will use our right of self-determination even though this means breaking the law and disobeying, since we have no other way around. Now, it is true that we have our own autonomy, as every Spanish region, however this autonomy has been constantly reduced over the years (in the fiscal, language and legislative level), and our Statute of Autonomy was butchered by the Constitutional Court in 2010 becuase it said that Catalonia was a nation, even though that Statute was voted overwhelmigly with a 74% of support also with the support of traditional unionist parties. There is a complete lack of respect for Catalan institutions and political will, and this lack of respect was already existing LONG BEFORE nationalists were voted into office and the campaign of civil disobedience started. What is happening now is the final escalation of a long series of events.

About the taxes...we don't collect our own. Only one region does, the Basque Country, and you can guess why they got such a sweet fiscal pact that allows them to collect and administer their own wealth whilst sharing almost nothing with the central government hint

Spoiler

(ETA ARMED CAMPAIGNS AND HISTORY OF COOPERATING WITH ROYAL AUTHORITIES TO KEEP THEIR UNIQUE AUTONOMY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communities_of_chartered_regime)

We, in the other hand, pay 20.8% of the taxes collected in ALL SPAIN (€37.8B), even though we don't recieve half of the investments we ask for in infrastructures. In fact we hardly recieve any investments by the central government and have to do the stuff ourselves or with EU help. Our economic autonomy is totally gone now since the central government took over our finances to stop any money from going to the referendum.

Calradianın Bilgesi
-I remember being told or reading that Spain tries to make federalism as symmetrical(in contrast with asymmetrical autonomy enjoyed by Quebec) as possible because of constitution.

Spain is not officially a federal country, although politically speaking it is VERY decentralized. The Spanish State is integrated by 17 autonomous communities and 2 autonomous cities (the Spanish african enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla), both groups being the highest or first-order administrative division in the country. Autonomous communities are integrated by provinces, of which there are 50 in total, and in turn, provinces are integrated by municipalities. In Catalonia, two additional divisions exist, the comarques (sing. comarca) and the vegueries (sing. vegueria) both of which have administrative powers; comarques being aggregations of municipalities, and the vegueries being aggregations of comarques. Although the country is politically decentralized it is culturally centralized under the identity and culture of Castilla (Castile), which has unified the country during centuries under their model. In some places they suceeded in their effort, in others, they haven't. The constant refusal of aknowledging the cultural diversity Spain has by Castilians has put them at odds with Galicians, Basques and, of course, Catalans.

-How much more power does Catalonia has compared to other regions in Spain?

6.3% of Spain's territory, 16% of the population, 20.1% of the GDP, 25.6% of the exports, 20.8% of the taxes paid, 25.7% of the research papers published, 23.8% of foreign tourists and for the lols 28.9% of olympic medalists in Rio 2016  .

Sources:

Spoiler

http://www.informes.iune.es/Informe%20IUNE%202017.pdf
https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=aec&n=354
https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=aec&n=245
http://www.ine.es/dyngs/INEbase/es/operacion.htm?c=Estadistica_C&cid=1254736176951&menu=resultados&idp=1254735572981
https://www.idescat.cat/economia/inec?tc=3&id=5901
https://www.idescat.cat/economia/inec?tc=3&id=5436
http://www.ine.es/dynt3/inebase/index.htm?padre=990

Some news (some I already mentioned in previous posts)

Spoiler

http://www.politico.eu/article/madrid-to-take-control-of-catalonias-finances/ <--- This is happening as we speak...
http://www.politico.eu/article/mariano-rajoy-on-catalonia-there-wont-be-a-referendum/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-boxes/police-in-catalonia-hunt-for-hidden-ballot-boxes-in-bid-to-foil-referendum-idUSKCN1BQ2MZ  <--- This has sadly already happened. So much for what some call a "liberal democracy"

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

that was not what I intended, but I found a useful table in wikipedia to answer my question. Turns out Catalonia has few additional powers compared to other regions in Spain.

 

[kurczak]

Incredible. Are you seriously making thinly veiled implications that the way to push through one's political demands is literal terrorism? Which is not only a horrible thing to say, but also factually wrong. The Basque country has had pretty much uninterrupted fiscal autonomy since times immemorial, while Catalonia's was abolished 300 years ago and ETA and their campaigns has nothing to do with it.

What has Catalonia being richer than most of the rest of Spain got to do with anything? Are you saying that any group that is richer than the average of a given political entity has by this virtue of being richer a right to secession? That's an...interesting sentiment. Do you realize, that since the independence movement is apparently pro-EU, the EU also has mechanisms for redistributing wealth between richer and poorer regions? Will it feel better if Catalan money is spent on Lithuania or Bulgaria instead of Extremadura or Andalucia? And that you won't be able to make a sovereign decision on how much you would contribute and who or what it would be spent on?

So, Catalonia accounts for 20.1% of GDP and 20.8% of the tax revenue. My god, what an outrage, what injustice! 0.7% difference! Of course the investment is lower in Catalonia, that's the whole point that you invest in the parts of the country that are less developed. Unless you go full minarchist night watchman state, which doesn't seem to be common among typically left-leaning pro-independence parties, there will be redistribution of wealth, whether its infrastructure or education investments or straight up welfare handouts. Levying taxes from a group and then investing 100% of the taxes into that group makes no sense.

Also, if you are so quick to bring up Catalan economic accomplishments, you should also mention the disproportionately high debt and the fact that Catalonia had to be bailed out by the central government as recently as, what, 2013?

 

[Gasset]

Incredible. Are you seriously making thinly veiled implications that the way to push through one's political demands is literal terrorism? Which is not only a horrible thing to say, but also factually wrong. The Basque country has had pretty much uninterrupted fiscal autonomy since times immemorial, while Catalonia's was abolished 300 years ago and ETA and their campaigns has nothing to do with it.

What has Catalonia being richer than most of the rest of Spain got to do with anything? Are you saying that any group that is richer than the average of a given political entity has by this virtue of being richer a right to secession? That's an...interesting sentiment. Do you realize, that since the independence movement is apparently pro-EU, the EU also has mechanisms for redistributing wealth between richer and poorer regions? Will it feel better if Catalan money is spent on Lithuania or Bulgaria instead of Extremadura or Andalucia? And that you won't be able to make a sovereign decision on how much you would contribute and who or what it would be spent on?

So, Catalonia accounts for 20.1% of GDP and 20.8% of the tax revenue. My god, what an outrage, what injustice! 0.7% difference! Of course the investment is lower in Catalonia, that's the whole point that you invest in the parts of the country that are less developed. Unless you go full minarchist night watchman state, which doesn't seem to be common among typically left-leaning pro-independence parties, there will be redistribution of wealth, whether its infrastructure or education investments or straight up welfare handouts. Levying taxes from a group and then investing 100% of the taxes into that group makes no sense.

Also, if you are so quick to bring up Catalan economic accomplishments, you should also mention the disproportionately high debt and the fact that Catalonia had to be bailed out by the central government as recently as, what, 2013?

Woah, don't put words in my mouth. Some awful accusations here.

To begin with I have NEVER said that the way to push forward is terrorism. In my post I did not advocate violence, if someone thinks I did I hope this makes it clear. The Basque fiscal autonomy has existed for centuries alongside other special social and economic rights (fueros/furs) all around the territory of Habsburg Spain. See, Habsburg Spain (1516-1700) was very much different in organization than the latter model implemented. Spain was then a composite monarchy formed by several kingdoms or crowns (for instance the Kingdom of Castille or the Crown of Aragon), which, even being "Spanish" territory held their own institutions and parliaments. Those created fueros (privileges granted by a monarch to the people, clergy and aristocracy). To simply most of these fueros were lost once Habsburg Spain died with Charles the II. The War of Spanish Succession and the enthronement of King Philip the Fifth, who was largely centralist, decided to change the state model Spain had to a centralist one, along the lines of the Castillian laws and institutions and abolished all the "furs" of the Crown of Aragon, including the Catalan ones, 303 years ago. The Basque ones were saved from abolishment since they fought alongside King Philip and, as a reward for their services he let them keep them (which is what I meant when I said by collaborating with royal authorities in my previous post). This ended in the XIXth century and the loss of these fueros were one of the reasons for the Carlists Wars. When it comes to the role of ETA in contemporary Spanish politics it is known that after the ceasefires and ETA's disappearance the fiscal pacts and larger autonomy were tools used to stop the violence and the kale borroka employed by some sectors of basque society. I do know my history. I was born and raised here, do not lesson me or accuse me of praising terrorist violence. Whilst many people (including myself) admired ETA's actions againts francoist officials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Luis_Carrero_Blanco) and military police we stopped looking up to those actions once they lost their ****ing head and started bombing supermarkets and killing ordinary people, some of them, in Catalonia.

Again, words in my mouth I never said. I never said that being richer gives you the right to secession. And I do not shy away from solidarity. If a region or country is richer than a poorer region or country I support plans for development. I did not complain at all about that. But with solidarity and fraternity amongst peoples comes respect, and respect goes both ways. I do not complain about the redistribution of wealth between the south and us, I complain about the lack of respect we constantly recieve from those regions, even though we help them out constantly by sending funds for education, health services and good infrastructure. And despite being unionists I don't understand (and I do not generalize here, there's great people and idiots everywhere, even home) the constant stream of hatred, bad reputation, constant media harassment, stupid stereotypes there are about us when we sheltered their people by the millions and most of us have family there, or other connections. I can't stand going there and having to answer akward questions about my political alignment or people who straight up ask you why do you speak Catalan with your family there. It's stupid and it makes me sad that we can't get along.

I don't expect an enourmous amount of investment but I hope for SOME investment. As in, you should see the state of infrastructures here, the lack of funding for schools, healthcare and specially transport. It's unbelievable the amount of high-speed rails that exist from small villages to Madrid when the mediterranean area (Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands) where most of the money and trade happen is so badly connected, with a crappy regional train system which is heavily underfunded and ignored.

I am starting to think that whatever I say will be spinned around againts me, I hope this doesn't trascend opposition to secession into opposition to whatever I say.

 

[Austupaio]

Liberia?

Interesting example, but namely I was referring to every single reservation in Canada, the United States and Mexico.

 

[Gasset]

Some articles;

http://www.politico.eu/article/catalonia-referendum-spain-tensions-near-breaking-point/
http://www.politico.eu/article/catalonia-referendum-independence-timeline-how-did-we-get-here/

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/sep/29/colm-toibin-point-of-view-madrid-catalan-separatism

Some interesting developments, specially the Mossos d'Esquadra role in the 1st of October.

 

[Arriguy]

You guys are self-aware enough to realize that the reason the Spanish government is so opposed to even the very idea of Catalan independence is BECAUSE you guys are such a crucial aspect of the country? You're essentially ****ing over your fellow countrymen (because for the time being you guys are still countrymen) and it doesn't matter if you're Gallego, Asturiano, Andaluciano, or Castellano, if you're in the rest of Spain, you're going to be pretty frustrated at the people that are saying

"We're a hugely important part of this country! For that reason, we should leave the country!" Because that's your argument in sum.

As for the argument "hurr durr they jokes bout muh language." Yeah- everyone does that. As a spanish-speaking American myself, I often get jokes about Spanish, my accent, and my origins. Doesn't matter. You move on with your life. You're not going to see me move back home and start campaigning that Southern Florida should secede from the US because we have our own thriving tourism, agriculture, and real estate economy (even though most Americans would rather see Florida totally secede, they think we're weirdos) Americans from the Northeast make jokes about how Americans from the South speak.

The whole thing just reeks of nationalist-tribalist thinking and utter selfishness, lack of regard for your fellow countrymen, probably some unspoken remaining anger directed at the Madrid govt bc Franco, and an astounding lack of self-awareness.


But anyways, Catalonia is a nice place. I always play as Aragon in Total War games anyways . Força Barça I guess, or something like that


- Also, I'm not arguing that the way Madrid has handled the whole thing has been great -but y'all havent been particularly considerate either

 

[Mad Vader]

Florida Man paints alligator red and yellow in support of Spanish unity. 

 

[AreJohn]

Florida Man paints alligator red and yellow in support of Spanish unity. 

Somewhat related.

 

[crodio]

Andaluz*
If Catalonians develop a national consciousness, who can tell them to stay in Spain?
When did Spain become a liberal democratic 21st century entity that must be defended from these savage protofascists? Last I checked it was the last pocket of the middle ages in yurop. I don't see why catalonians shouldn't be radically selfish.

 

[Arriguy]

I'm not telling them anything. I'm just saying hey, it makes total sense why Madrid is screeching - and it's not because they're some evil people (mostly) that want to wipe the Catalans off the map. God knows Franco tried.

I think both sodes bungled the whole thing from the start. Madrid for failing to consider the attitudes of the Catalans and closing the noose around them, and the Catalans for painting the opposition as evil and refusing to work within the system.

Admittedly now would be the perfect time to extract mad concessions from Madrid, because there's really not much they could do besides march troops into Catalonia. Which would effectively give them their independence by treating them as an occupied country

 

[Dystopian]

This whole Catalan thing is really just a romantic ideal anyway. No matter how "different" Catalonians continue to claim to be they are still Spaniards just like the other culture groups. It's mildly irritating to put it lightly. As Arriguy pointed out the rest of the country needs Catalonia and its not like the Madrid government neglects the richest province in the state. Like this is some 13th century Scotland situation. It's a bunch of romantic hogwash I tell ye

 

[crodio]

Spain doesn't exist, it is a made up ancient regime entity that shouldn't even exist by now