Catalan Independence

[Somewhatpro]

It seems to me Spain wants its Autonomies to prop up the failing economy when individually many of the regions would be well off as their own countries.

bueno

 

[Marko͘]

I just picked a random language for the sake of argument, but a sizeable proportion of Welsh and Irish people have English as a second language.

Thing is, it isn't even a minor difference(I know you didn't look up numbers, just pointing out how big of a difference it is). A language of a nation is one of the strongest pillars of its existence, and that does translate to the Catalan case.

Only 19% Welsh speakers in Wales.

The census determined that 85.43% of the population could not read, speak or write in Welsh and that 80.99% of the population could not speak Welsh

In Ireland it's even worse:

Irish is a main household and/or community language for approximately 1% of the population of the Republic of Ireland[1] (the population of the Republic of Ireland shown to be 4,581,269 in the 2011 census). The 2011 census in Northern Ireland showed that over 10% of people spoke Irish or had "some ability in Irish" (see Irish language in Northern Ireland). At least one in three people (~1.8 million) on the island of Ireland can understand Irish to some extent. Estimates of fully native speakers range from 40,000 up to 80,000 people.[2][3][4] Areas in which the language remains a vernacular are referred to as Gaeltacht areas.

While in Catalonia:

73.2% (5,350,000 people) of the Catalan population aged 2 or more can speak Catalan, and 55.8% can write it. Data from the 2011 census that has been today released by the Statistical Institute of Catalonia (Idescat) also show that 95.2% of the Catalan population say they understand Catalan. If compared to the 2001 census, the speakers percentage has suffered a slight decline of one point, down from 74.5%.

 

[lorddarknes]

Is scottish accent really un understandable?

 

[kurczak]

Why not? They have the historical grounds, language, economy and their national feeling.

I don't believe in self-determination. It's an ugly-ass spawn of nationalism and needs to go.

Also, regarding Catalan economy, it's no treasure trove. Their GDP/capita is not only behind Madrid, which actually is the richest part of the country, but also behind other regions and it is the most indebted of all regions. The Catalan "boom" was mostly driven by the pre-crisis real estate bubble.

It's just the same regionalist redneck myth again - we are such hard workers and everybody in the capital just sips cocktails and drives Mercedes'. No they don't, you just suck.

 

[Marko͘]

Their GRP/capita is actually 4th of all the regions, their debt being 40bn though.

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The problem with the debt is, just how much are they able to do when they are not doing well in terms of giving-getting back taxes to the central Spain.

Because of their relative wealth, Catalans pay a lot more in taxes to Madrid than they receive via central government spending in return.
In effect, some 10% of Catalonia's GDP each year is used to provide financial support to the rest of Spain.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Suddenly I'm sensing that kurczak wishes for a reunification of Czech Republic and Slovakia.

 

[Mage246]

Their GRP/capita is actually 4th of all the regions, their debt being 40bn though.

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The problem with the debt is, just how much are they able to do when they are not doing well in terms of giving-getting back taxes to the central Spain.

Because of their relative wealth, Catalans pay a lot more in taxes to Madrid than they receive via central government spending in return.
In effect, some 10% of Catalonia's GDP each year is used to provide financial support to the rest of Spain.

Wahhh, other people are poorer than us and need government assistance, waaaahhhhh.

 

[Beny]

Does make more economic sense than scotland. Provided they can get EU membership.

 

[kurczak]

Sherlock:

Yes, 4th means that it is behind Madrid and some other regions too.

The numbers wikipedia uses seems to be old and/or wrong. Spanish GDP per capita PPP is 36k, not 22. 22 is about the level of the less developed parts of Eastern Europe. The chart claims to be PPP, but the numbers look like nominal ( French GDP/capita PPP is absolutely not 27k ), so I have very little faith in its accuracy.


Now that the real estate bubble has burst, Catalonia's GDP/capita (nominal) is 28k, while total average for Spain is 26k. Good for them that they are ever so slightly ahead, but if that's carrying the rest of the country, then I'm the Chinese Empress of Funky Times. If they are carrying anyone it's the south, whom they carry along with the parts of the north of the country and with Madrid.

But more importantly, this whole "we are richer than the rest of the country" is stupid. By that logic, Barcelona should secede from the rest of Catalonia, then maybe the touristy and finance parts of Barcelona should secede from the rest of Barcelona and so on until every person is their own country 

It's funny how the both the Scottish and Catalan nationalist who claim to be on quite the left are reluctant to share their supposed wealth with the rest of the country.

Suddenly I'm sensing that kurczak wishes for a reunification of Czech Republic and Slovakia.

Why would that be so terrible? We split extremely amicably. It was basically Slovak government saying "Czechs don't care about us, we want independence" and the Czech government saying "Finally, good riddance. You've been a burden for 70 years anyway."

Anyway, Czechoslovakia was to a large extent an artificial country, invented after WWI to reduce the power of Hungarians and Austrians/Germans in the region. It can't be compared to Spain.

Personally I think it was pretty awesome, I love all things Slovak and we should have gone one step further and create a Czecho-Slovak-Polish federation, so that all my grandparents would live in the same country, but well, I guess the world doesn't revolve around me after all...

 

[Almalexia]

I heard the Slovaks regret the split, cus the Czechs had all the money so when they left Slovakia didn't have ****.

 

[Danath]

But more importantly, this whole "we are richer than the rest of the country" is stupid. By that logic, Barcelona should secede from the rest of Catalonia, then maybe the touristy and finance parts of Barcelona should secede from the rest of Barcelona and so on until every person is their own country

Ironically, Barcelona provides maybe 50% of Catalonia's GDP, and as you'd expect is the place where less people voted for independence.

Regarding the economy, about half of production is sell to the rest of Spain. Some1 say that although Catalonia could work as an independent state, it would be poorer.

It's funny how the both the Scottish and Catalan nationalist who claim to be on quite the left are reluctant to share their supposed wealth with the rest of the country.

Actually Catalonia was ruled from 1980 to 2003 by a right wing party, always the same president. The current president is pretty much his succesor and won elections in 2010. They jumped in the bandwagon of independence as they lost votes and an investigation of the former leader (and the finances of the party) brought to light millions (some say more than a thousand) of doubtful source, money laundry, etc.

隐藏: Don't worry, I'll cover you! (party's treasurer arrested)

The current coalition includes said party, left wing parties, and need the votes a far left (anticapitalist) party that has always been pro-independence (such group obviously provides much amusement)

1Enrico Spolaore, Professor of Economics of Tufts University, Massachusetts

 

[Lerber]

It's about money, but it's also about self determination. People should be allowed to split off if a large portion of the population agrees (perhaps 75% since 50% seems to low to me.) National sovereignty is becoming less important and I think we as a society need to accept that. Nations should be groups of like-minded individuals. The Catalans clearly don't feel they mesh well with the average Spaniard.

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Nations should be groups of like-minded individuals.

hitler did nothing wrong

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Yes, yes, Godwin's Law, so be it.

 

[Untitled.]

By that logic NK is the perfect state because everyone votes for one of the four (communist) parties.

 

[Mage246]

The problem is that they can't make a strong moral case for needing independence, only a fiscal one. They cannot make any claim of persecution by the government, have no actual grievances against the laws of their country, and have no restrictions on practicing their own culture and using their own language.

 

[kurczak]

Ironically, Barcelona provides maybe 50% of Catalonia's GDP, and as you'd expect is the place where less people voted for independence.

I'm not surprised at all. Full fridges make content population. That's exactly why I think that as the overall economic situation improves, nationalism will drop. There's no real ethnic oppression or discrimination against Catalan language or culture, so the whole nationalism schtick is just misplacing frustration with the economy.

Actually Catalonia was ruled from 1980 to 2003 by a right wing party, always the same president.

Alright, my bad. Was under the impression there's more republicanism and socialism circulating around within the nationalist circles (especially when PP is in power in Madrid)

The current president is pretty much his succesor and won elections in 2010. They jumped in the bandwagon of independence as they lost votes and an investigation of the former leader (and the finances of the party) brought to light millions (some say more than a thousand) of doubtful source, money laundry, etc.

隐藏: Don't worry, I'll cover you! (party's treasurer arrested)

Noooo, get the **** out of here. A politician in <city that is geographically closer to me> would never be dishonest or corrupt. That's what the politicians in <city that is more geographically distant from me> do. If it  wasn't that way, how else would independence magically solve all my problems???

It's about money, but it's also about self determination. People should be allowed to split off if a large portion of the population agrees (perhaps 75% since 50% seems to low to me.) National sovereignty is becoming less important and I think we as a society need to accept that. Nations should be groups of like-minded individuals. The Catalans clearly don't feel they mesh well with the average Spaniard.

National sovereignty isn't important ergo you support a nationalist movement?

I heard the Slovaks regret the split, cus the Czechs had all the money so when they left Slovakia didn't have ****.

Technically the federal funds got split fair and square 2:1, which is the populations' ratio, but Slovakia was less industrialized and urbanized at the time of the split (the reasons for which go back to the 19th century) and had been receiving more federal transfers per capita than CR. Hence why a lot of Czechs felt that Slovaks with their nationalism were being "ungrateful" and were willing to let them go. Slovakia also had no strategic value, because we don't have any strategy apart from "let's see how long it lasts this time" which you can do without Slovakia.

Anyway, regret is probably an overstatement. After the split, Slovakia descended into a really dark place for about 5 years when it was ruled by a mix of post-communists and ultra-nationalists. Politicans got kindapped, people disappeared, **** got real. The 90s were wild in the CR too, but it was nothing compared to Slovakia. They eventually got their **** together and caught up with us for all practical purposes. Now we're both in about the same place, economically, culturally and institutionally. Lots of Slovaks come here to study and work. Younger generations, who are more cosmopolitan and liberal than their parents dropped their respective superiority and inferiority complexes. So I wouldn't say they regret it, but it's more like "eh, why did the split even happen again?"

 

[Jhessail]

Slovakia also had no strategic value, because we don't have any strategy apart from "let's see how long it lasts this time" which you can do without Slovakia.

But it's actually true.

 

[kurczak]

Czech Republic: A Bitter Nation's Journey Through Other Nations' Plans

Soon in theaters far away from you. Critics say it's kind of average and has been done a lot of times.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I'll say. It's a blatant ripoff of that film about Poland.

 

[Vicccard]

Another crisis for the EU. Great. Just what we need. A separatist war on the French border.

The Russians are loving this.