Caravans should be safe income source or not?

[Karl_Magnus]

I'm willing to make an educated guess there are more planned features coming to caravan than currently exists.

I'm sure there is, I just wanted to throw this out there.

But I suppose the goal of this thread is really only just to gather opinions on the question asked.
So uh, yeah. More risks. It's easy enough to make money, sometimes too easy.

 

[GuitarGangster]

IMO caravans are fine the way they are. If you think you need to nerv them somehow i would set a maximum to how many caravans you can operate at the same time. Maybe two, or one for every two clan tiers or something along those lines. But i dont think they should be a priority atm!

 

[mexxico]

Thanks for lots of feedbacks and new feature ideas. I am reading all however our current plan is to make game more exciting and balanced by adding small additions. Adding new complex features can be our goal at next steps and as I know native will not be complex especially in terms of trade systems. In Warband trade systems were not detailed too even way more basic compared to Bannerlord. Modders can add these features and create their trade / caravan oriented mods. Game is already so detailed and adding every new detail make things a bit harder. Probably in first months adding new trade features will not be our primary target. As you see in patch notes nowadays we generally fix bugs / crashes or change small things to make game balanced. However by changing small things or formulas you can lose your caravans more or see more caravan involved battles on map. This will balance things a bit and increase battle variety at map.

 

[SmattlePattle]

Thanks for lots of feedbacks and new feature ideas. I am reading all however our current plan is to make game more exciting and balanced by adding small additions. Adding new complex features can be our goal at next steps and as I know native will not be complex especially in terms of trade systems. In Warband trade systems were not detailed too even way more basic compared to Bannerlord. Modders can add these features and create their trade / caravan oriented mods. Game is already so detailed and adding every new detail make things a bit harder. Probably in first months adding new trade features will not be our primary target. As you see in patch notes nowadays we generally fix bugs / crashes or change small things to make game balanced. However by changing small things or formulas you can lose your caravans more or see more caravan involved battles on map. This will balance things a bit and increase battle variety at map.

Fair point and totally understandable, my only reiteration would: Regardless of new features or not, something should have meaningful gameplay impacts. Adding risk to caravans is good, but if you can't interact with that risk at all it becomes pointless. If say you lose an average of a certain number of caravans, all that means is you go from making a reliable 50k a year to making a reliable 40k, or 35k, a year. The reward is reduced but you still play EXACTLY the same as if they had no risk.

Risk is only meaningful if you can either interact with it/the risk is variable depending on a players choices.

 

[Havada]

As subops mentioned - caravans should be way more vulnerable BUT we should have way more control over their actions, for example trade routes and their parties. Yep, we need a proper management interface for the caravans. For example:

- to create a caravan you need either your companion or a hired merchant. In the first case it's free, in the second case you have to pay the merchant around 1k gold and he will take ~25% of your caravan income (isn't it a great idea?)

- you're setting the starting capital of your caravan (probably with some minimum value like 1k)

- in the moment you're creating a caravan, you're able to hire special caravan-only troops. You're choosing the amount and composition but they're expensive and they've rather high wages

- you're setting the maximum weight the caravan should be heading for (caravan will buy the pack animals by itself to match it or you can donate pack animals directly to it)

- you can have no more caravans than your clan tier. There should be trade perks that noticeable increase this amount

- you should be able to either set a fixed trade route for each of your caravans or choose towns they should visit exclusively (so they'd pick routes between these towns by themselves)

- yep, caravans should be slower

- probably we should be able to control what products is each caravan buying or at least preferring to buy

We need control. Watching AI doing all the work isn't satisfying at all.

 

[Procyon]

@mexxico
Let us create caravans anywhere, like a party and prepare it for trading with horses we bought ourselves and protect it with our own troops. This way, we can't have caravans too soon (unless we want to give it weak troops and/or be vulnerable ourself), it won't cost as much if we want to create it early, but won't give so much money right when it starts making profits and there will be a progression to the size of the caravan, more controlled by the player.

We could also ask the caravan to trade only in specific towns for specific products and be able to use them to export our workshops production.


That should also be a thing.

totally agree
this can help with the insane frequency that Lords IA atack the enemy territory, as money will be more difficult.

 

[MBeagleguy]

Thanks for lots of feedbacks and new feature ideas. I am reading all however our current plan is to make game more exciting and balanced by adding small additions. Adding new complex features can be our goal at next steps and as I know native will not be complex especially in terms of trade systems. In Warband trade systems were not detailed too even way more basic compared to Bannerlord. Modders can add these features and create their trade / caravan oriented mods. Game is already so detailed and adding every new detail make things a bit harder. Probably in first months adding new trade features will not be our primary target. As you see in patch notes nowadays we generally fix bugs / crashes or change small things to make game balanced. However by changing small things or formulas you can lose your caravans more or see more caravan involved battles on map. This will balance things a bit and increase battle variety at map.

So that means our horses can be merchants right? ?

But your post is very reasonable and I agree with it. I like the manner in which you all are updating/patching the game right now. I think step by step is the way to go.

 

[mexxico]

Having your caravans randomly get destroyed would be very annoying considering their expensive initial investment. If there are meaningful gameplay decisions and consequences around it, sure, I could get behind the idea. The player has better things to do then follow their caravan around all day protecting it.

I am also aganist random events. For example in "Escort Merchant Caravan" quest there is 30% chance of creating bandit group attacking escorted caravan when it is leaving one settlement and I think this is a bad design which is done in hurry (maybe in future it will change). So player should have a control as much as possible over his settlements and parties and no random events should occur. So if your caravans will be attacked enemy will be also one valid game element (not a randomly created) and I am also adding new notifications now like "your settlement is besieged by X" "your caravan is attacked by X near Y" (X is enemy and Y is settlement) Your clan member party is atacked by X near Y. So player will know what is happening and will consider helping if event is close. In Calradia it is illogical your caravan travels for years without attacked (current situation). So having some attacks from valid game elements (bandits, lords) once or twice a year will not be a random event.

 

[High chief Kieran]

i am in favor of making it more risky, if there was no risk in the caravan business than why send guards with it in the first place.
a lot of powerfull merchants in history send ships and caravans over the world to trade, they could lose their ships to storms, caravans to bandits etc.

i know randomness is not always the nicest thing to experience in gameplay but it is realistic that sometimes things happen that are out of your controll. in M&B we are rp humans, not gods, we should not be able to controll everything. having some random events does add to this experience.

IF you are going to change anything besides making it more risky than maybe add in the option to send more guards with the caravan so they have better protection. that way players can chose, have a higher profit with more risk (low amount of guards) or a lower profit with less risk (sending more guards will give more protection but cost you more in upkeep after all)

 

[Gamersaufromage]

They are are not safe during war. I've lost all my caravans during my last war. I had to find where were my companions, find them and repay the caravan :'( But I think it should stay like it is with a slighlty more chance to be caught by a large group of looters.

 

[Wehveechen]

First of all thanks for consulting on the forum!
Anyway, would it be possible to give caravans some sort of "grace period" in which they definitely keep running until at least the initial investment of ~15k is at least partially back in? It feels like a bit of a compromise between safe income and risk. That way, caravans are in any case at least profitable, but uncertain for how long?

 

[mexxico]

First of all thanks for consulting on the forum!
Anyway, would it be possible to give caravans some sort of "grace period" in which they definitely keep running until at least the initial investment of ~15k is at least partially back in? It feels like a bit of a compromise between safe income and risk. That way, caravans are in any case at least profitable, but uncertain for how long?

Yes despite its positive points biggest con of adding risk to caravan business is if player lose his/her caravan right after creating it (even each day losing caravan probability is about 1% mentioned scenario will have a probability like 2-5%), this will be very unwanted situation and probably he/she will criticize this addition. Its a good idea to make them safer at initial 20-30 days. However to make this we need to make some cheating (making player caravan invisible by enemies at initial days) which we are generally aganist. Anyway I will think this.

 

[vicwiz007]

I am also aganist random events. For example in "Escort Merchant Caravan" quest there is 30% chance of creating bandit group attacking escorted caravan when it is leaving one settlement and I think this is a bad design which is done in hurry (maybe in future it will change). So player should have a control as much as possible over his settlements and parties and no random events should occur.

I actually disagree in the case of the quest. That event is the only thing which makes the quest fun, because there are never any bandit parties large enough to challenge a caravan, let alone a caravan being followed by a large player party. Is this why the quest seen at gamescom was removed which had the player join the militia in defending a caravan under attack?

Now, if you were able to create some non randomized way of creating events like this, such as larger slow bandit groups which specifically target caravans and balance it in a way which they end up targeting the questing caravan X% of the time, of course it would be better. But if its either random events or no event at all, the choice is clearly random events imo

Also glad to gear youre working on notifications. Its hard to keep track of those things. Any chance we’ll be able to choose what to track? Like say i want to track Sargot to be notified if it is sieged at any time.

 

[brognar]

If caravans are made more vulnerable, give us options to reinforce them with better soldiers

 

[blightedscrib]

Caravans are definitely OP. All caravans, not just player caravans, need a speed nerf so it's realistic to attack them, particularly with cavalry heavy war parties.

Also, one user pointed out that it would be cool if the caravans could be completely retooled to actually be a live party in your kingdom, not just an automatic thing. I think that's a fantastic idea, but let's not get lost on flights of fancy.

When bandits successfully raid a caravan, its loot should be stored in the nearest aligned bandit base as well (Appropriate balance-related decay and caps of course) giving more of a reason to attack them, and a greater reward for the 7 on 20+ scenario. I don't know how deep the bandit mechanics actually are, but if bandits themselves could have an economy function and become more dangerous/powerful as they successfully raid (IE, Mountain Bandits start spawning disproportionately more Highwaymen instead of Hillmen) creating a greater incentive to fight the bandits (or if you have master Roguery, better use of the Merry Men perk when it functions)

 

[JustinTime49]

I actually disagree in the case of the quest. That event is the only thing which makes the quest fun, because there are never any bandit parties large enough to challenge a caravan.

I like to interpret that he wishes there to be a proper encounter as opposed to the battle being based on RNG. It can get a bit ridiculous when you run around with a party of ~50 with the caravans ~20, and it gets attacked by a bandit party of 100+ of tier 3 jav units and tier 4 cav units(culture based). They're stronger than lords' parties for christ's sake!

Yes despite its positive points biggest con of adding risk to caravan business is if player lose his/her caravan right after creating it (even each day losing caravan probability is about 1% mentioned scenario will have a probability like 2-5%), this will be very unwanted situation and probably he/she will criticize this addition. Its a good idea to make them safer at initial 20-30 days. However to make this we need to make some cheating (making player caravan invisible by enemies at initial days) which we are generally aganist. Anyway I will think this.

I do think though that there should be a prompt during the dialogue that allows us to pay additional funds for a more elite caravan unit. Grace periods are always an iffy solution since it indirectly gives players an advantage over the AI who do not have this grace from the player(unless you somehow make them invisible too).

In general, I know you said you guys don't plan on making it too complex, but relying on modders to properly create immersive and lore-affecting features like hiring a clan member of one of the minor factions to accompany the caravan to enact that grace period should never really be fallback, no matter the company.

 

[BattanianDruid]

I feel like caravans are fine as is. They give a passive income to players who'd reached a point where looters are no longer challenging or fun to engage with anymore so they can shift their focus toward doing other things.

There's already a hard limit to how many caravans you can run because you need to dedicate a companion to each one.

There's already a risk to relying entirely on caravans. I've lost one a couple of times.

They stop being especially relevant the moment you own a fief which will out-earn your caravans by a fair amount.

If caravans become too risky it'll become a dead feature. Nobody is going to pay 15,000 denars if there's a decent chance the caravan will be destroyed before it can even make the money back, and if caravans get destroyed all the time they stop serving the intended purpose of being passive income you can rely on early on. If I had to stop what I was doing to hunt my companion down and re-build a destroyed caravan multiple times a year I'd just stop using the feature all together.

 

[Karl_Magnus]

I've lost one a couple of times.

In that case maybe it's better to not touch caravans just now. Especially if it's only just to temporarily augment risks for rewards.

To be quite honest I dislike seeing artificial changes just to make simplistic aspect of the games more ''balanced''. I prefer waiting to have real rework of mechanics and features.

 

[JurgenJuggernaut]

Even before 1.0.1.0 my caravans we're attacked by mercs or other factions, and their money fluctuates. I think we should ask this question when caravans give trade exp and companions increase trading exp too. So we have the hole picture.

Because I suppose that trade skill increases income.

 

[Ragemaster9999]

I am also aganist random events. For example in "Escort Merchant Caravan" quest there is 30% chance of creating bandit group attacking escorted caravan when it is leaving one settlement and I think this is a bad design which is done in hurry (maybe in future it will change). So player should have a control as much as possible over his settlements and parties and no random events should occur. So if your caravans will be attacked enemy will be also one valid game element (not a randomly created) and I am also adding new notifications now like "your settlement is besieged by X" "your caravan is attacked by X near Y" (X is enemy and Y is settlement) Your clan member party is atacked by X near Y. So player will know what is happening and will consider helping if event is close. In Calradia it is illogical your caravan travels for years without attacked (current situation). So having some attacks from valid game elements (bandits, lords) once or twice a year will not be a random event.

If caravan income remains passive it should be reduced similar to how workshops were. I agree the design could use some changes... its just something fire and forget currently and could use some more strategy or input from the player. I just don't want to see caravans nerfed to the point where they constantly get killed because then everyone will complain they are useless and come here to the forum and you'll have the exact opposite problem.

Also I really like your idea about location events. Warband had a in-game log ledger type feature with recent events is it possible we can get something like that in bannerlord? If not atleast consider expanding the text and adding contrast to it because when your fief is under siege or assault it only flashes on screen very briefly and is easy to miss.

Also as a side note managing caravan parties does not give any trade exp despite the tool tip for trading in the character page saying trade goods and operate caravans.