Captain mode - Skirmishers Fastest infantry units?

[Spottswoode]

Hey guys,

We were playing around with some commonly unused unit compositions the other day. Had fun using skirmishers and had some good rounds. In the last round I thought I would run decoy and bait the infantry into chasing me while our bows work, thinking these little fellas were going to be racing around all over the place faster than most of the other infantry units. I was super disappointed when they were run down by a bunch of Clan warriors with shields. (had my guys on hold fire so the javs were not slowing them up.

Maybe I am getting too caught up in my own definition of a skirmisher, but i was thinking these guys were going to be annoying the crap out of other infantry with their speed. Because of the general distain for the class and random match strategy of get warm bodies into a mele brawl quickly or lose, I had not run skirmishers much before.

Interested in captain players thoughts, to be honest i could have made a critical error last night and my own actions were the reason i got caught by the clan warriors, i was pretty damn tired.. but I'm pretty sure it played out as I wrote it above.

(I did have the throwing spear, maybe this added too much weight?)

How do we think skirmishers could become more viable. I love running decoys with infantry for my archer players, doesn't yield lots of kills for me but sets up the team for a fun day at the office.

 

[MP_Erik]

For most ranged classes the running speed is deliberately lowered in order to prevent kiting. I think for skirmishers the low amount of ammunition should be sufficient to prevent that and I would be fine to have them as the fastest infantry in game.

On the other hand clan warriors are a light infantry class, so catching up with skirmishers is not too far fetched.

 

[Ling*]

For most ranged classes the running speed is deliberately lowered in order to prevent kiting. I think for skirmishers the low amount of ammunition should be sufficient to prevent that and I would be fine to have them as the fastest infantry in game.

On the other hand clan warriors are a light infantry class, so catching up with skirmishers is not too far fetched.

The thing is that most of us in the competitive captain mode community want archers and skirmishers to be able to kite infantry units as it makes them viable unit choices. Kiting can easily be countered with the use of Cavalry units which are the fastest units on the field, they can ride down any ranged units that attempt to flee. Currently with ranged unit speeds being as slow as they are it makes repositioning with archers a literal death sentence as ANY unit on the field can outrun them, so once infantry sees you start to move your archers to a better position they will simply chase you down before you can ever get there.

Kiting only seems to be an issue for Skirmish players for the most part.

 

[Moton]

The thing is that most of us in the competitive captain mode community want archers and skirmishers to be able to kite infantry units as it makes them viable unit choices. Kiting can easily be countered with the use of Cavalry units which are the fastest units on the field, they can ride down any ranged units that attempt to flee. Currently with ranged unit speeds being as slow as they are it makes repositioning with archers a literal death sentence as ANY unit on the field can outrun them, so once infantry sees you start to move your archers to a better position they will simply chase you down before you can ever get there.

Kiting only seems to be an issue for Skirmish players for the most part.

I beg to differ. I'm one of the captain players on the other side. I strongly belive that archers need support units and good positioning. There is nothing I hate more than ending every game with an endless chase after some archers, especially now when formation (shieldwall) speed is so slow.

I mean sure if you use hunters or any other super light archer (also remove two handed weapons from them) they should be alot faster then every other infantary except shock and light (berserker, menavlion ,rabble, clan warrior, etc.) but there is no way a troop of Palentine guards or Fians should outrun most infantary units, that's just crazy.

 

[Thiil]

There is nothing I hate more than ending every game with an endless chase after some archers, especially now when formation (shieldwall) speed is so slow.

You forgot to add "...at 25% speed cause of the slow-bug"

blabla

I agree with everything you said.

To the OP:
You were being chased by light infantry - might've ended differently if chased by Varyag, Oath etc.

 

[Spottswoode]

To the OP:
You were being chased by light infantry - might've ended differently if chased by Varyag, Oath etc.

But doesn't it pose an interesting question about the skirmisher class?
They can't stand in mele with anyone except light archers. Their javs are ultra weak, horribly inaccurate over range, so by the time you can let a volley go (and know you will hit some targets) the enemy is almost close enough to force mele on your troops. They have tiny amounts of ammo so they will not pose a long term threat to an army, and they are too slow to outrun a much more mele proficient unit like light infantry... They seem to be stuck in limbo.

I just really think that the skirmisher class should probably have a bit more capacity to move quickly into and out of position between the few low damage jav lobs that they get... Surely that's not a whacky concept considering they are very light armor and absolutely terrible at mele fighting and also pretty terrible at damaging units with javs... If they had speed, at least they could be efficient at being a skirmishing party

There clearly is a problem with skirmishers in captain, no one takes them for a reason.

 

[Ling*]

I mean sure if you use hunters or any other super light archer (also remove two handed weapons from them) they should be alot faster then every other infantary except shock and light (berserker, menavlion ,rabble, clan warrior, etc.) but there is no way a troop of Palentine guards or Fians should outrun most infantary units, that's just crazy.

Yeah I wouldnt want Heavy Archer classes to be too fast but definitely light archers and skirmishers need to be faster than infantry as they are lightly armored and nearly useless in a melee fight without 2handers. Infantry shouldnt be the counter to every class choice. As it stands 1 cavalry unit is all it takes to destroy or distract multiple groups of archers, the speed buff would atleast let light archers and skirmishers be able to kite infantry so that they dont get run down on foot by units in heavy armor with better melee capabilities. Kiting is a legitmate tactic that should be present within the game.

 

[Moton]

Yeah I wouldnt want Heavy Archer classes to be too fast but definitely light archers and skirmishers need to be faster than infantry as they are lightly armored and nearly useless in a melee fight without 2handers. Infantry shouldnt be the counter to every class choice. As it stands 1 cavalry unit is all it takes to destroy or distract multiple groups of archers, the speed buff would atleast let light archers and skirmishers be able to kite infantry so that they dont get run down on foot by units in heavy armor with better melee capabilities. Kiting is a legitmate tactic that should be present within the game.

Yeah I agree that light armored classes should always be faster then the heavy units. But when you say "infantary shouldn't be counter to every class choice" you forget that infantary should be the core and they are the most versatile. They sacifice range and speed to be better on everything else. And with the formation speed debuff I think they are in a pretty good place. The fact that 1 cav can distract all archers is another problem not really linked to movementspeed and it also have to be fixed somehow. That's also one of the most annoying things in the game when all your archers shoots after one cav and misses and you watch helplessly while some berserker units rush you and you know how dead you are. But that doesent mean you're supposed to outrun berserkers but the fact that the AI have a huge priority problem.

 

[Zarthas]

So this discussion is a little hard, because there's only one "real" skirmisher class, the Aserai Skirmisher, with a move of 82. He's faster than all Heavy Infs, most Lt Infs, all archers, and most Shock.

Most Skirmishers are faster than everything except some Shock Infantry and are tied with a couple of light infantry. In general, you are able to outrun anything that isn't a naked screaming Barbarian/Bear-Man, which seems fair to me.

I'm with you, I'm very pro Skirmisher, but I still think their main problems are from Javs being nerfed into the ground, and some unusable Captain-mode perk choices. Recruits/Brigands make me sad, Aserai Skirmisher and Wildings are the most solid representations of Captain Mode skirmishers in my mind.

I think we should hold off grumbling too much or asking for too many changes until we get the Captain-Mode specific perks, I'm hoping that will open up Skirmisher utility in a meaningful way. We should and will grumble then.

Edit: Also, give me a Sling-equipped Skirmisher, or give me death!