MP Captain mode - Lightly armored archers slower than full gear shield units? Archers are on average very weak and unrealistic/immersion breaking

[Bajtjr]

Archers in MP Captain mode are the least useful unit on average and the least realistic. Khuzait and Empire archers are however very useful purely because of high armor and great weapons that make them a great fighting unit in melee and against cavalry as well and since they have high armor it is reasonable that they run slower so my rant is not about Empire or Khuzait archers although these two are on average overpowered and I assume are the main reason why the rest of the archers suck.

However It feels so stupid and immersion breaking that archers in plain clothes run slower than heavily armored units that also have shields unless they are heavy archers like Khuzait and Empire archers but even then they are more lightly equipped than most shield units. I do believe the main thing affecting unit speed should indeed be the amount of armor not only because its fair also because it is realistic and makes sense. Seeing archers with just a bow, some arrows and plain clothes on their back being outrun and caught by the heaviest armored units while carrying a shield makes me cry inside.

Balance between archers and other units:

1.Vs. shield (much weaker, currently can't even outrun shield): Archers should lose to shield units since they can't penetrate a shield wall however should be able to outrun shield units if they have lower amount of armor and kite them but shield units can just defend the flag in captain mode so kiting isn't an issue in captain mode not to mention cavalry can easily kill archer units. Vs. shield unit archers would be forced to melee shield units on the flag and get obliterated. However currently heavy shield units don't even have to do that, they can just chase down archers and kill them with no issue.

2.Vs. Cavalry(much weaker): Archers get obliterated by normal cavalry and especially menavlion cavalry so currently we are 0:2 for archers vs different units.

3.Vs. two handed(Slightly weaker): If you put for example a full team of two handed units and the players on it just press f1, f3 to charge against a full team of archers (not Khuzait or Empire), archers again lose probably most games so in my book archers apart from Khuzait and Empire lose on average against all type of units.

The only useful way of using archers other than Empire and Khuzait is to trick the opponent into leaving its flanks open while engaging other units in melee that are now outnumbered because you have picked archers and basically praying that not a single player controlled shield unit or horseman starts to manipulate the AI by moving near the archers and forcing them to switch to melee and if it happens then your archers won't do anything while they rest of your team dies. I don't see a reason why pick archers when its a much safer bet to just play some melee unit or cavalry since archers are just frustrating to play and unrealistic.

If you look at the more veteran players they also tend to stay away from archer units apart from Khuzait and Empire purely because of how unrealistic, slow and easily manipulated they are, archers really suck and something should be done about it, at the very least they should be able to run faster than units with much heavier gear than plain clothes archers. I played quite a few patches ago when archers barely outran shield units and even then archers were way below average units apart from Khuzait and Empire archers but now they are just useless and unrealistic, this needs to be fixed. Every time I see some archers in any other faction but Khuzait and Empire I know its gonna be a tough round for us.

 

[Spyware]

You talk a lot of **** from someone in Fian Bowman range.

lol. I agree but I think it should be like that having certain factions have strength in certain areas. Maybe it should be rebalanced as this game is still in early access, but making them identical or equivalent would make the game stale and boring. But yeah, light armor should make you faster supposedly.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

there was a time when 6 bowmen was the meta... those were dark days...

Yeah... it's all a balancing act - though honestly I still love captains mode; and at least we see somewhat diverse armies now instead of mass peasants or mass cavalry.

3.Vs. two handed(Slightly weaker): If you put for example a full team of two handed units and the players on it just press f1, f3 to charge against a full team of archers (not Khuzait or Empire), archers again lose probably most games so in my book archers apart from Khuzait and Empire lose on average against all type of units.

This I think is only due to the maps - they are so damn tight that it is easy for infantry to move up unmolested.

Give us a big open field and archers will go to town on non-shielded units.

 

[the_hajji]

there was a time when 6 bowmen was the meta... those were dark days...

Yeah... it's all a balancing act - though honestly I still love captains mode; and at least we see somewhat diverse armies now instead of mass peasants or mass cavalry.



This I think is only due to the maps - they are so damn tight that it is easy for infantry to move up unmolested.

Give us a big open field and archers will go to town on non-shielded units.

oh lord the archer meta of the winter of 2019...

anyway all the problems with archers rn seem to be map related like u said. tho their quality also dropped following the change in aiming if i remember correctly

 

[Olaf The Cruel]

The archer nerf is the single most breaking "nerf" cap mode ever experienced. It was actually the skirmish update 1.5.0, that made the cap mode archer AI and normal range, actually ALL range AI, go from pretty good to useless over night. And that also made all tactics dealing with archers on the battlefield obsolete. TW never did anything to fix it, and left us hanging for over 6 months with no range. And with 1.5.4 they even nerfed them more. This time it was the captains ability to aim that received a nerf, again a skirmish update, also the damage, and their movement speed got nerfed. Tw simply broke them by mistake, and only made them more useless if you ask me. The most funny thing is, that no one in cap mode had a problem with archers. They were exactly perfect as they were. Sure they could deal damage, but were never too op. If you had a plan to deal with them.

 

[darksoulshin]

premise: Archers should have a movement speed that must be slightly higher than units heavier than themselves.

Realistically it shouldn't be that way, or more precisely, what they should have shouldn't be a greater speed of movement, but a greater resistance in maintaining that speed given the small load carried.
But since, in the game, there is no sort of "fatigue" of the units that takes into account the energy expended in carrying their total weight (including equipment) along the paths, then we have to be content with the difference in speed alone.
having said that, my suggestions are:

VS shield:
[POLL] SHIELD + STUCKED PROJECTILE = ENCUMBRANCE

VS all other type of unit:
JOINT HURTBOXES and ARMOR HURTBOXES: an armor system that provide a way to balance factions warfare and make more deep the combat system(suggestions)

Two handed VS archer:
Two-handed combatants are already disadvantaged enough because they have no shields and STRANGLY this game and its community do not conceive the idea that a person can suddenly step, short enough, to the side (or in any direction) to avoid. an attack or an arrow.
In this case the 2-handed fighter would have an advantage with this mechanic.
NON-SPAMABLE DIRECTIONAL STEP-DODGE new mechanics suggestion

Archer VS two handed:
JOINT HURTBOXES and ARMOR HURTBOXES: an armor system that provide a way to balance factions warfare and make more deep the combat system(suggestions)

VS cavalry:
I would say that it is quite normal for the archers to be charged by the cavalry and for this to be able to kill them quickly.
If even the light cavalry manages to do it without suffering any damage, I would say that the problem lies in the armor system and therefore you return to the thread that I have already entered twice and that I do not insert yet, the one on the armor system.